Talk:Homosexuality in Sailor Moon

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We really have to distinguished between real and imagined in this case. Sometimes fans speculate but there's no real proof apart from innocent innuendo for Mercury and Jupiter, I wouldn't list them under a category of 'lesbian' at all, it can just serve to confuse people. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to note such sexual anecdotes under a different category.--WikiSysop 09:55, 15 May 2006 (MST)

I think I was fairly clear on which ones are fannon and which are cannon. If you like there can be two larger sections of "Cannon" and "Fannon" to seperate them, though I'm not sure about how to format it that way.

How's the change I made? We need to be a bit careful with fan canon, always making sure to label it clearly as such. Once this is up and running, the majority of users I suspect will be people who aren't as new to the series as some of us are, and we don't want to be accused of creating false images by letting them get easily confused between the two. Certainly, we want to make this a very fan oriented project and helpful to people who want to understand fan canon, but I also think we need to clearly separate between the two.--WikiSysop 10:11, 15 May 2006 (MST)
Yeah, this needs better separation... (or possibly needed, Jay changed the article while I was writing this :P) first a section on actual canon lesbians in the series (there are only really two), then the rest of the speculation could follow. I've always thought of Crow and Seiren as the next-most implied couple after Haruka and Michiru (in the anime, anyway) but that's probably just me. This could be an interesting article on lesbianism within the series in general, but for that to be the case, we can't have it 90% imagined couples (and believe me, I say this as the biggest fan of yuri I know). Dooky 10:13, 15 May 2006 (MST)
Dammit now I have to do all that again.--WikiSysop 10:15, 15 May 2006 (MST)
Isn't Seiya being a lesbian pretty canon? Especially considering she still falls for Usagi in the manga where she is a girl 100% of the time. It's just unlike Neptune and Uranus her love (or loves if you count her apparent love for Kakyuu) is unrequited. GracieLizzie 10:20, 15 May 2006 (MST)
I guess so. It makes sense in the canon section for now, people can dispute it. FYI I changed the part about Makoto having dated "many many guys." As far as we know, she's only dated one, her "departed boyfriend" that she constantly refers to, and merely pines after the others. Something many people don't note is that the term she uses in Japanese, shitsuren shita sempai, doesn't completely imply "ex boyfriend." It's actually "unrequited love" and she may not have even dated him, he could have been merely a major, obsessive crush. In the anime, at least. I think he makes an appearance in the manga.--WikiSysop 10:23, 15 May 2006 (MST)
Heh, I forgot about Seiya. Incidentally, Mako's sempai does sort of appear in the anime in a flashback, and Makoto seems to imply that she's dated a few guys before him (this is all in episode 49, I think). Dooky 10:28, 15 May 2006 (MST)
Hmm, the "rainy day man" episode huh? I don't remember specifics, perhaps she did date instead of being outright rejected each time. I can't prove it either way so I left it vague on the page for now.--WikiSysop 10:33, 15 May 2006 (MST)
I could have sworn that Mako's sempai was the girl who wrote the Pegasus books in SuperS. :P Kyaa the Catlord 21:36, 15 May 2006 (MST)
Then Mako has bad eyesight, she looks nothing like all those guys she kept compairing to her ;) GracieLizzie 09:34, 16 May 2006 (MST)
Mako certainly does have bad eyesight. We are still trying to get her to wear some glasses for our latest, um, project. Kyaa the Catlord 19:54, 16 May 2006 (MST)

Suggestion[edit]

How about renaming this to something like "Lesbianism in Sailor Moon"? As it stands the title is a bit misleading (unless we want to stick a definition of 'lesbian' in there).

I agree and I've moved it :) GracieLizzie 10:20, 25 May 2006 (MST)

http://www.tam.ne.jp/~heyan/wma/wma_e.htm - may be this site can be added in external links? This is probably the best resource concerning Mako-Ami affair. Anton-P 00:05, 15 July 2006 (MST)

I don't think that's really necessary. Besides, the site only has information for the original series and about half of R, and it was last updated in 2005 (not to mention that the grammar is absolutely horrible).

They're my favourite couple, so sue me :P[edit]

Where would Crow and Seiren go in this article? There's nothing explicit but Crow's obsession with Seiren seems to go way beyond friendship. I realise I'm biased so I'm just putting this out there for debate. Also, Lethe ans Mnemosyne in the manga seemed extraordinarily close, but again that might just be my yuri goggles. Dooky 21:51, 29 June 2006 (MST)

I always thought Lethe and Mnemosyne were more like Cyprine and Ptilol, actually...but agreed with Crow/Seiren. Kerochan no Miko 22:57, 29 June 2006 (MST)
Hmmm, I once read that Lethe Mnemosyne were called sisters at one point, or something similar, but this was in the Materials Collection or something and not in the manga proper. Plus I may be misremembering. GracieLizzie 05:06, 30 June 2006 (MST)
You could be right, and like most characters in the Stars manga they're only around for about two pages anyway. I suppose we really don't know much about them at all, so in their case I'll defer to someone who has actually read the manga recently.
For Lead Crow, I was thinking about the possibility of a third section here for 'characters where there's some genuine evidence but nothing conclusive'. I guess the equivalent for gay male characters would include the likes of Fiore and maybe Usui, the fashion designer in SuperS. The main drawback for this section would be that it could potentially encourage people to move characters out of the 'fanon' section and into the 'maybe' section, and I don't want this article to turn into an edit war. But on the other hand, I have my loyalty to the Crow/Seiren cause... :P Dooky 05:19, 30 June 2006 (MST)
Personally I took Usui as fairly blatently gay not to say it's canon as in not one says he is but that in my mind I am almost certain he is. I mean why else would Fish Eye not pretend to be a girl around him? Anyway we might want to renamed this section to homosexuality in Sailor Moon so we can discuss Kunzite, Zoisite, and Fish Eye too. GracieLizzie 11:14, 30 June 2006 (MST)
^I agree! It should be all of the same-sex couples.  :D--Sakky 21:24, 12 November 2006 (MST)

^ Ditto. --210 21:27, 12 November 2006 (MST)

Would Crow/Seiren be canon or fancanon? Oh I see Dooky mentioned something that like... Implied Relationships maybe we could call it? Lethe & Mnemosyne are twins (materials collection) so big NO on them. XD --Sakky 16:40, 13 November 2006 (MST)

Crow/Seiren is decidedly fanon, but it is implied. And there's nothing that says there can't be twincest. :P Kerochan no Miko 17:07, 13 November 2006 (MST)
[Re: Twincest] "Big NO" morally & genetically (for twins of diff. genders), but it could still happen in reality, just as any kind of sexual deviant behaviors. --210 19:34, 13 November 2006 (MST)
Yes. It could happen in reality. This is why I pointed that out, when Sakura said Lethe/Mnemosyne was ruled out because they were twins. Kerochan no Miko 20:44, 13 November 2006 (MST)
You're right, it is anime. @____@--Sakky 07:24, 14 November 2006 (MST)
Oh, and isn't Yoshiki Usui's assistant his brother? More incest? T_T--Sakky 07:27, 14 November 2006 (MST)
They're only brothers in the NA dub.[1] This was obviously done to hide any homosexuality hints. --GracieLizzie 07:57, 14 November 2006 (MST)

^ ... but turned out to become (the even worse) incest homosexuality, as Sakky said? (Well, I haven't watched the dub. Just wild guess. lol) --210 21:10, 14 November 2006 (MST)

Dark Mercury[edit]

Certainly Dark Mercury of Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon could be seen as a jilted lover to Usagi.

Uh. According to who? Kerochan no Miko 10:50, 13 November 2006 (MST)

I'm going to remove that certainly. It is a moderately popular fanon pairing but that certainly makes it look canon... which it isn't. --GracieLizzie 11:29, 13 November 2006 (MST)

Juicy New Pics[edit]

May I suggest adding the words "Parental Guidance" at the top right-hand corner? lol --210 21:15, 14 November 2006 (MST)

Two people embracing is hardly "juicy". Kerochan no Miko 22:20, 14 November 2006 (MST)
Here's a suggestion. Find something better to do than make worthless discussion sections on LD cover art.--WikiSysop 00:28, 15 November 2006 (MST)
I was just making an obvious joke in my original comment & didn't expect to be responded (not that I mind being responded tho lol) --210 01:14, 15 November 2006 (MST)
Well, my standard for such matter is low. Call me a con. :P --210 23:18, 14 November 2006 (MST)
...a convict...? Kerochan no Miko 23:33, 14 November 2006 (MST)
lol I meant "conservative" as in "neo-con", but actually I don't think I'm one in a strict sense. I was j/k in my last comment. --210 00:08, 15 November 2006 (MST)
FYI, I've never heard anyone use "con" to mean "conservative" (except in conjunction with "neo" in the sense you noted there). Kerochan no Miko 09:43, 15 November 2006 (MST)

^ Noted, thank you very much. m( _ _ )m --210 18:10, 15 November 2006 (MST)

Ahaha "a convict". God, I love to read old comments on talk pages ^^ --Silver 21:04, 23 December 2009 (MST)

Category[edit]

I really don't know what category this article belongs in - do we need a new "metaseries discussion" category or something? Kerochan no Miko 08:52, 23 February 2007 (MST)

When I categorized it as "Terms and Phrases", I actually felt it didn't fit neatly - it's more like "concepts" not mentioned outright in the series, but I couldn't find a better category. I think your suggestion could work. Any other ideas anyone? --210 18:00, 23 February 2007 (MST)

PGSM[edit]

Who thinks that Sugao Saitou and Ikuko have a relationship? That's one I certainly have never heard before... Kerochan no Miko 12:48, 21 March 2007 (MST)

That's why I commented it out. I wasn't sure whether I'd come across this, or whether I'd misinterpret someone who really liked their friendship. --GracieLizzie 13:38, 21 March 2007 (MST)
I'm not clear on why it needs to be there at all, even if it's hard to see. Kerochan no Miko 14:43, 21 March 2007 (MST)
I commented it out because I was going to bring it up for discussion here, but then I had to go do something and when I got back you'd brought it up for me. If you think I was reading too much into things, then I'm happy for it to go as I suspected that was what I was doing. I was just wondering if there were any Saitou/Ikuko shippers out there at all. --GracieLizzie 15:03, 21 March 2007 (MST)
Added my bit. :P It was pointed out by some fans at the time of airing. --210 18:38, 21 March 2007 (MST)
What fans pointed it out where? That's my question. "Some fans" could mean some guy you once met at a con or it could be a common belief on an entire message board. I know I personally never ran into anything like that, so that's why I'm asking. It's too easy for someone to put their own personal interpretations into an article and pass it off as, "oh, I heard some fan say it once". Kerochan no Miko 20:53, 21 March 2007 (MST)

^ That's why I didn't formally put it into the article, because I can't remember the what & where now (just remember it was written in English), but I hope there'll be someone who can when they see it. And I agree w/ your last sentence, but that's not me (tho it can't be proven either way lol). --210 03:24, 22 March 2007 (MST)

Yeah I'd like to point out I don't think Ikuko and Saitou are "together" I just a have a vauge memory of running across someone giving of the impression that was what they thought. I may be have misinterpreted someone though, and my memory of this is rather foggy.--GracieLizzie 07:03, 22 March 2007 (MST)
My (vague) memory is someone, who might or might not be the same person you're talking about, was just joking about it, but there was another person (?) pointing out the sexual inuendo (sp?) in some of the shots btn them.
Anyway, Ikuko-mama might be regretted to have dumped her 1st love (Saitou) in high school & married to a boring man who never appears except for his daughter's wedding. <--[Fanfic materials lol] --210 18:55, 22 March 2007 (MST)


References[edit]

I removed the references to http://okazu.blogspot.com as the subject at hand was barely glossed over on the linked entries; one single quote about Haruka and Michiru does not, IMHO, merit a link as a reference for an entire section. Kerochan no Miko 16:52, 4 April 2007 (MST)

Latest additions about Rei[edit]

Are they sufficient to establish her homosexuality/bisexuality? (If in real life, I don't think, w/o further psychological testings, they can.) --210 22:27, 26 May 2008 (MST)

Finding a magazine in Rei's closet is not enough to "prove" that she's bisexual. I removed the speculation. Kerochan no Miko 06:50, 27 May 2008 (MST)
Besides the fact that even entirely straight women can be attracted to and enjoy looking at other women for their beauty. Griffie 00:27, 25 January 2009 (MST)
That's very true, & the same also applies to guys (e.g. Bruce Lee's posters in numerous guys' bedrooms). lol --210 00:43, 25 January 2009 (MST)

Hawk's Eye[edit]

In the manga, Hawk's Eye cross-dresses as a woman and is as effeminate as Fisheye is in the anime. That does not necessarily means he's gay, but do you think is worth mentioning?

Hawk in the manga --Silver 21:00, 23 December 2009 (MST)

Yes, he looks effeminate in it, but how does that related to homosexuality? Any related behaviors of him in the manga? --210 21:08, 23 December 2009 (MST)
I don't think so. I'm not an expert on the topic (and I don't want to offend to anyone) that's why I asked it. But there's no way to confirm whether he's gay or not since no relationships are shown. I guess he just likes to cross-dress. --Silver 21:14, 23 December 2009 (MST)
So I guess that tidbit doesn't belong to this article, tho it might be worth mentioning in other ones, if appropriate. --210 21:21, 23 December 2009 (MST)
Yes, we have an excelent article for Hawk's Eye himself to mention that kind of stuff about him. I should've think about it in first place ^^; --Silver 21:29, 23 December 2009 (MST)

Tiger's Eye[edit]

Re: the bit about Hawk's Eye in the musicals: first of all, that section is for fan canon, and everything else in there is there because it's a fairly prevalent belief in fandom. I've never run into prevailing fan theories that Hawk's Eye is gay based solely on the fact that he was the only member of the Trio played by a man, so... that's not exactly fan canon, it's speculation. The fact that he was referred to as an "okama" isn't proof that he's homosexual, it's proof that people called him by a pejorative slang term; it's worth a mention in the trivia on his article, but it's not something that should get him an entry on this article by itself. Kerochan no Miko 21:14, 15 February 2011 (MST)

Tiger's Eye is the male one, not Hawk's Eye (its Hikari Ono!). He also has a demeanor similarly to Saitou Sugao who is included in this article thats why i put it there XP. 21:37, 15 February 2011 (MST)
Ah, right. Looked at Tiger's Eye and wrote Hawk's Eye, idek. Again, contributions to this article can't simply be your personal opinion. Kerochan no Miko 21:42, 15 February 2011 (MST)
is that better? Cartwheelingfiesta 21:44, 15 February 2011 (MST)

French Dub[edit]

In the French dub of the anime, both Luna and Artemis are female which makes them lesbians. In episode 133, Luna accused Artemis for being a homosexual and they had always thought that they were close friends instead of lovers. They were later revealed to be homosexuals when Diana showed up.
First of all, how does the fact that Luna and Artemis are female automatically make them lesbians? One doesn't necessarily imply the other, so this sentence needs more explanation. The rest of it is phrased in a very confusing manner-- Luna and Artemis had always thought they were close friends and not lovers? Shouldn't they be the only ones who knew what they were? And how exactly were they "revealed to be homosexuals"? Was there something in the dialogue? What does Diana have to do with it? Explanations and clarification, please. Kerochan no Miko 19:52, 29 June 2010 (MST)

Have you watched the anime? Artemis and Luna have a complicated relationship where Artemis has an unreciprocated crush on Luna. This is a major plot point in the Sailor Moon S movie, which I presume was also dubbed in French. In Episode 133, it's revealed that in the future they become lovers and eventually have Diana, who is their future daughter. As the previous poster mentioned, the French dub preserves Artemis and Luna as women even after Diana (and their future romantic relationship) is revealed; therefore, it can be suggested that they are lesbians in the French dub. Tnatnatna1 01:40, 24 July 2011 (MST)
Have you watched the French dub? Do you know if they preserved the relationship, or did they downplay it as many dubs did? Unless you have some kind of proof or evidence to back up your point, I'm not sure why you're reviving a discussion over a year old - and one that isn't relevant anymore, as that was removed from the article. Kerochan no Miko 01:59, 24 July 2011 (MST)
Being french, I would like to make some comments about Artemis in the French dub. Artemis had TWO voices in the french dub, I never check but I think they change his voice during the S season. When Artemis first appeared, the voice sounded really feminine, I believe that after his introducing speech of Sailor Venus, artemis said to Luna : "nous avons maintenant 5 guerrières et 2 chattes" (translated as : "we now have 5 warriors and 2 female cats"). Artemis still had this feminine voice when, at the beginning of the R season, he tried to seduce Luna on the roof of Usagi's House, which sounded like they were lesbians. HOWEVER, During episode 133, Artemis IS male, Bourdu (= Mamoru) tells him "mon vieux, tu n'as vraiment pas de chance" which can be translated as "old pal, you're very unlucky". "Mon vieux" can not be used to talk to a female character, it would be "ma vieille" instead. Furthermore, Diana calls Artemis "Papa", if he was a female, she should have said "Maman". Just as a side note, I don't think that the S movie was ever dubbed in France, the only Sailor Moon movie released in France was the R movie. (I apologize in advance if my explanation are not clear enough, just let me know and I'll try to rephrase it)--Oberon 10:45, 24 July 2011 (MST)
This article says, "In the French dub of the anime, both Luna and Artemis were female when they first appeared, which implied that they were lesbians. However, Artemis was later referred to as a male in subsequent episodes." That seems to me to adequately cover the information you've given here. Kerochan no Miko 12:35, 24 July 2011 (MST)

Sailor Venus[edit]

There were so many things wrong with the assumptions made in that section that I removed it. Suffice it to say, it's nothing but baseless opinion and does not belong in this article. Kerochan no Miko 16:44, 22 January 2011 (MST)

Some details[edit]

Most Western spectators say that Kunzite and Zoisite's relationship being romantic in the anime is canon. But it is never explicitly stated in the show, they do not kiss or anything. It is most likely a cultural misunderstanding, because of the rose scene - people who know Japanese culture say that it is normal thing to give flowers to a boy or a man, and pink rose symbolises for a Japanese not romance, but trust and comfort. A red rose, on the contrary, symbolises romance. And what comes to Zoisite's famous last words - the verb he uses also does not mean romantic kind of love, but respect and adoration. And you mention the Gaiden musical. Since when "I will always adore him" means homosexuality? (This unsigned comment was left by 81.88.211.21, 13 Dec 2018)