Talk:Image song

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Do "Luna!" and "Ai no Energy wo Ubae" count as image songs? They're about the character &c, but aren't sung by their seiyuu, though one might argue that "Initial U" falls under the same argument. Kerochan no Miko 22:53, 15 January 2007 (MST)

Yeah, put them under image songs. I disagree that the PGSM songs are unique or even that the anime image songs don't appear in the show often. Many of them were used at least once, sometimes in unique ways. For example, Ami's "Ashita wa mata jitensha" (I think that song) got played on the radio in the SuperS episode where they go to the beach. I can name a number of the songs in that list which got played at least once in the show.--WikiSysop 00:20, 16 January 2007 (MST)

Okay, I'll amend it. Kerochan no Miko 12:03, 16 January 2007 (MST)

If our working definition of image songs is songs "intended to give a better idea of the personality or feelings of a particular character," the Sera Myu section makes me distinctly uncomfortable. That's the function of many, if not most, of the songs in the various musicals, and under that definition I feel that we would have to expand the list many, many times over... especially if we're opening it to villains such as Black Lady and Sailor Galaxia, as the list implies. This isn't to say that I don't think there are songs that could justly be called "image songs" in the musicals - the songs that appear on the "Memorial Album of the Musical - Eternal Edition" 1 and 2 could mostly be called such, as could songs that contain musical motifs later associated with a character or characters, such as "Stay Alone," "To a Brand-New World," and "Chasin' After You." But at the moment, the musical Image Songs section seems lack a guiding logic.--Dallbun 18:42, 31 March 2007 (MST)

Again, I must repeat: I am not a myu expert. I believe I added "The Last Change," "Drive Me The Mercury," "Honoo no Messenger," "Zigzag Slash," and "Traditional the Grace ~Ai no Arashi~" because I saw them described several times on websites as the "theme songs" for the Senshi in the musicals. But if you have changes you think should be made, feel free to bring them up rather than just criticizing the basic layout of the article. Kerochan no Miko 18:46, 31 March 2007 (MST)
Gotcha. Sorry, Kerochan no Miko, I don't mean to attack your Myu knowledge specifically - I just keep feeling like I need to check in with other people before changing things majorly, since I'm only dabbling on the site. I *personally* would suggest cutting "Tuxedo Royale," "Waltz ni Koi wo Nosete," "Onna no Ronsou," and "Kono Kodou Kara Yoru wa Umarenai," and villain songs (because seriously, we don't want to open that box of worms), possibly adding some more such as "Broken MOEBIUS" and "Forbidden Hades," "Koi no Senshi ja Irarenai," and "Chasin' After You", and definitely adding a comment that this is a sample of *major* character-associated songs from the musicals, rather than a complete list. Is it okay to make such a major renovation based on my personal opinions of what should or should not constitute an image song from the musicals, or should there be some kind of sysop decision about what qualifies? --Dallbun 18:57, 31 March 2007 (MST)
I have no arguments against them, personally. I think that we need some kind of boundaries on the myu section, so if you think those work, go for it. I was a little iffy on a couple of the ones we have there anyway. Kerochan no Miko 19:01, 31 March 2007 (MST)

Would the song "Watashi-tachi ni Naritakute" count as an image song for Chibiusa/Sailor Chibi Moon or a combination of Helios/Chibiusa? Griffie 21:23, 25 January 2009 (MST)

Mmm. It might be considered a Chibiusa image song, but...I'm a little iffy on classifying it as such, since it was an ending song. Kerochan no Miko 00:29, 26 January 2009 (MST)

I removed "Solar Miracle, Make Up" as an image song because it doesn't, as the article says, "give a better idea of the personality or feelings of a particular character" - it's a preparation-for-battle song, not a "this is who we are" kind of song, so it doesn't really seem to fit the definition of an image song. Kerochan no Miko 19:51, 28 January 2009 (MST)

Can someone please put up English lyrics for the image songs? (This unsigned comment was left by Royal1918, July 22, 2010)

Someone has to translate them first. If you know Japanese, feel free to do so. Kerochan no Miko 12:50, 22 July 2010 (MST)

Myu Songs[edit]

As previously discussed (and since I know myu songs a lot better now than I did four years ago) I think a lot of the songs listed in the Sera Myu section honestly need to be cut simply because they don't really fit the "traditional" definition of image songs as used for anime songs. By the logic currently being used in that section most of the musical songs in general could fit in there, so... unless a song is particularly notable as a character-associated song (such as Honoo no Messenger or Stay Alone or the like) then I don't think it needs to be there. And yes, this means that "Amazon Kara Circus Dan ga Yatte Kita" shouldn't be in there because, while it has lines that "introduce" the Trio, the majority of the song is devoted to moving the story along and therefore isn't really all about them. Kerochan no Miko 09:52, 12 February 2011 (MST)

* Dream Yume wa Ookiku should not have been deleted, it is played across multiple musicals and is closely linked to their characters. Particularly Ami, besides it doesn't advance the plot in most of musicals it appears in except Ai no Senshi and the first Dracul. Without Ami it discusses the other senshi's dreams which is key to the Sailor Moon series as a whole. You seem to have listed only songs which they say their names after all. Amazon Kara Circus Dan ga Yatte introduces the Trio yes, but why does that make it not an image song. Are you sure you haven't mixed it up with Amazon Trio no Yume Sagashi? Koi no Senshi Ja Irarenai however, just because they say HADES IMPACT - SAILOR PLUTO. Doesn't really mean anything to either Sailor Pluto or Setsuna's image, does it? 13:44, 12 February 2011 (MST)~~
Did you read the discussion up above on this talk page? The point is that 1) this is supposed to be a representative list, not listing every single song that could be potentially considered an "image song" and 2) just because it has a line about how a character is feeling doesn't make it an "image song." Kerochan no Miko 14:52, 12 February 2011 (MST)
Okay, I'm sorry but I disagree. Dream Yume wa Ookiku has a long opening that features Ami's conflicted beliefs. This adds to her overall image, it even appears in musicals where it does not advance the plot at all. Later in the song it discusses the dreams of the other Inner Senshi. I also think that Amazon Kara Circus is barely about the Circus. As i said before they're talking about themselves and how although they think they're amazing they can't last forever. Which is adding to their image. 20:11, 12 February 2011 (MST)
And, heh, sorry but thinking about it now. How is Traditional the Grace an image song then? She only ever says "Tenshi no yuuwaku". Don't you agree? ^.^ Cartwheelingfiesta 20:15, 12 February 2011 (MST)
Okay, please don't take one single point and argue that. It doesn't matter if you think a song advances the plot or not, or if you think that a song features someone's "conflicted beliefs." As I have stated more than once now, the point is that this is a representative and not an exhaustive list. Please re-read the previous discussion; I will re-state one more time, but I'm not going to keep rehashing it endlessly.
I did not pick songs based on "adding to their image" or whatever that means. Because the myu songs are in a different class than the PGSM or anime songs, and 99% of all musical songs could probably be considered an image song in one way or another, I'm picking the songs for this list based on whether or not they are strongly associated with that particular character, and generally speaking I'm going with songs that were on the "Eternal Edition" CDs since there needed to be some kind of criteria and another user suggested it. Hopefully that answers your question and forestalls even more argument. Kerochan no Miko 21:56, 12 February 2011 (MST)
"another user suggested it"... im sorry but i dont think that makes you right =\ Why couldn't you create a criteria then? The Eternal Edition is just songs sung in-character. Not image songs. They have one for each senshi. For the inner senshi there is only one option anyway. Thats why they are there not because they are 'strongly character linked'. Why can't does your list have to be short anyway? I think you should reconsider and try to open your mind a little bit more, sorry Cartwheelingfiesta 22:11, 12 February 2011 (MST)
Cartwheelingfiesta, please don't ask me to do something you aren't willing to do yourself.
As I have said, most of the musical songs could potentially be considered image songs by a broad definition of the term. Because I don't see any reason to list every single song here, I'm limiting it to particular significant songs. If you have a suggestion for a song that fits an Inner Senshi better than the ones already listed, please make a suggestion. If you don't have a suggestion and just want to make me repeat myself constantly, then I'm not going to continue this conversation. Kerochan no Miko 22:14, 12 February 2011 (MST)
Thats not true. Would you like me to compile a list of songs I think could be image songs then? and you can pick and choose out of that then 22:15, 12 February 2011 (MST)
It will take me a few days to go through all the musicals though. Ill repost it here when I'm done. (This unsigned comment was left by Cartwheelingfiesta, February 12, 2011)
I can compile a very large list of songs that could be image songs. The point is that I can't think of any that are more notable than the ones listed here. Kerochan no Miko 22:24, 12 February 2011 (MST)
Well I'll try to keep to be harsh then kay ^^ Cartwheelingfiesta 22:26, 12 February 2011 (MST)
.......what? Kerochan no Miko 22:28, 12 February 2011 (MST)

Tuxedo kamen image songs[edit]

In Seramyu, there are alot of songs that Tuxedo Kamen sings that are about him and could fit the category. Tuxedo versus, Prince of the Earth etc.Have_a_niceity 01:13, 20 April 2011 (MST)

There are lots of songs that are image songs. This list is "representative", there's enough on there and I don't see a point in discussing anymore really ^_^ Cartwheelingfiesta 01:16, 20 April 2011 (MST)
Just in case this discussion is brought up again in the future: I added the aforementioned songs on the Myu section of Tuxedo Mask's article, where I think they truly belong (since this is supposed to be a representative list). Silver 20:30, 25 April 2011 (MST)
Looks like a good solution to me. Kerochan no Miko 20:56, 25 April 2011 (MST)


Propose to include in the musical section only include characters who appear in at least two musical sets: The Sailor Senshi (including Starlights & Kakyuu but not the Sailor Quartet), Tuxedo Kamen, Queen Beryl, the Shitennou, Professor Tomoe & Kaolinite, The Amazon Trio, Sailor Galaxia & Her Sailor Animamates, Count Dracul, Blood Dracul Vampir, Prince Dimande, Loof Merrow and Dark Plasman at the very most... The remaining character sonsg should be either noted on the song articles or noted on the character, see the Tuxedo Kamen article, as "songs performed by". e.g. on the article Yume Yume Utagau Koto Nakare "was an image song for the Samael Quartet" and on the Amazoness Quartet article, "together performed the song 'Yume Yume Utagau Koto Nakare'". Cartwheelingfiesta 22:12, 28 June 2011 (MST)

or even at least three, this would mean only the Senshi, The Starlights, Galaxia, Beryl, Count Dracul, Kaolinite, Tomoe and Tuxedo Kamen, Kakyuu gets excluded though... Cartwheelingfiesta 22:19, 28 June 2011 (MST)
Considering the length of your proposed list I think we need more than just two musicals. I don't want the section to be much longer than it already is. Kerochan no Miko 23:40, 28 June 2011 (MST)
Okay... I'll make the edits now... Cartwheelingfiesta 23:57, 28 June 2011 (MST)
Unless there are other ideas Cartwheelingfiesta 23:57, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Here is my proposed list:

Also characters appear in at least 3 musicals (Kaiteibans are not included)

  • Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon - The Last Change
  • Ami Mizuno/Sailor Mercury - Drive Me The Mercury
  • Rei Hino/Sailor Mars - Honoo no Messenger
  • Makoto Kino/Sailor Jupiter - Zigzag Slash
  • Minako Aino/Sailor Venus -Traditional the Grace ~Ai no Arashi~
  • Chibiusa/Sailor Chibi Moon - Pinky Typhoon
  • Mamoru Chiba/Tuxedo Mask - Tuxedo Mission/Tuxedo Loyal
  • Hotaru Tomoe/Sailor Saturn-To a Brand-New World/The World Died Out
  • Setsuna Meiou/Sailor Pluto-Stay Alone/Forbidden Hades
  • Queen Beryl-Yami koso Utsukushii/Yami no Hitsugi
  • Sailor Galaxia - Galaxia Gorgeous
  • Count Dracul-Dracul Hakushaku no Kodoku
  • Kaolinite- Kagami yo Moshi ya

Multiple Characters

  • Chou Bi! Uranus to Neptune (Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune)
  • Harsh! Saint Cry!! (Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune)
  • Chasin' After You (Three Lights/Sailor Starlights)
  • A Shooting Star Light (Three Lights/Sailor Starlights)
  • Koi no Senshi ja Irarenai (Sailor Senshi)
Tuxedo Loyal was excluded before but it has been listed as "Tuxedo Kamen no Theme" on more than one album and musical so it should be in here at least. Songs like Chibiusa no Hanran and Double Moonlight Romance will be indictaed on character/song pages. Cartwheelingfiesta 00:06, 29 June 2011 (MST)
If we include Tuxedo Mission and Tuxedo Loyal then we really have no reason to exclude Tuxedo Versus. Where do we draw the line? And the same goes for Dracul: if we remove Dimande then I don't see a reason to list him. And why would Kaolinite be included? I don't think it should be just the number of musicals someone was in, it's also how large a role they played. Kerochan no Miko 00:42, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Dimande only appears in the Black Lady Musicals and Ai no Sanctuary musicals, (2) while Dracul appears in Last Dracul, Translyvania no Mori AND Chou Wakusei (3)... Like I said a minimum of three musical sets. As for which songs I don't think we should list anymore than a maximum of two per character... as its representative, not all need to be listed, Tuxedo Versus & Prince of The Earth can be noted on Tuxedo Kamen's page. The only way to draw importance without using opinion is by the number of appearances. Kaolinite makes 3 separate musical sets appearances. Kaolinite is an intensely important character in the musicals anyway... time to rewatch them O_o She's not just some lackey like the Animamates... she has more scenes that Tomoe. Shes central to 5 individual musicals in three sets (Usagi Ai no Senshi, Henshin Super Senshi and Mugen Gakuen)... Cartwheelingfiesta 01:16, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Besides... if we are going to go by "importance" Dimande's role is minimal in Ai no Sanctuary... his role is no greater than Dark Nibiru, Dark Plasman or even Debrinvilliers or as you say... Kaolinite. O_o although she's really pretty much up there with Beryl & Galaxia...Cartwheelingfiesta 01:21, 29 June 2011 (MST)
I definitely don't want more than two per character. But as I said, I don't think that the number of appearances really should be the deciding factor, but rather how important the character and/or song are, and there's pretty much going to have to be some opinion involved somewhere (deciding to limit the list at all is opinion, for a start). For example: songs like Tuxedo Versus/Mission/Loyal are really fairly interchangeable— they're basically just "HI I'M TUXEDO MASK AND I'M GOING TO FIGHT NOW" songs, so I don't see why we need more than one of them. Kaolinite may show up a lot, but she still isn't a main villain in the same way Galaxia is, so I honestly feel she's out of place on this list.
And are you telling me that I need to rewatch the musicals? If you're going throw insults I'm not going to bother discussing this. Kerochan no Miko 01:36, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Kaolinite in her first appearances is pretty much the main villain of the musical, its toned down a bit in Mugen Gakuen because its based on the manga, shes nonetheless important, ... but she definitely surpasses Dimande for importance to the musicals themselves. I don't feel at all like she's out of place. In the context of the musicals she is probably in the top five. In the context of the entire series she is not. However this is the musicals, and Kaolinite is definitely a main villain with more than two appearances along quite a remarkable amount of songs performed by her, the song however that is Kaolinite's and Kaolinite's alone is "Kagami yo Moshi ya". As for Tuxedo Mission / Loyal, *shrugs* it doesn't matter. Although since Loyal has been called his theme on official merchandise, it should probably be in there. Tuxedo Versus and Prince of the Earth have a lot fewer appearances than those two. Tuxedo Kamen is constantly getting new songs, Miracle Twister/Here Comes the Tuxedo Mask/Kaze no Shijin included, its easiest to go with his first two. What makes Galaxia so special?. I'm sorry if I offended you, but there was no insulting intended... sorry. Kaolinite is the main villain of her musical. Galaxia in hers. Although Queen Beryl's role in Eien Densetsu seems to be larger (her position in the curtain call is one example of this...) Dimande in his if you really want to push for him but he lacks importance in Ai no Sanctuary... on top of that he doesn't have as many appearances on her. Cartwheelingfiesta 01:52, 29 June 2011 (MST)
What's special about Galaxia is that she's a main villain in three versions of canon, whereas Kaolinite is arguably a main villain in the musicals but a lackey in two other versions of canon. I'm not pushing for Dimande to be included, I'm just saying that Dracul isn't necessarily more important than he is. Kerochan no Miko 02:00, 29 June 2011 (MST)
The anime and manga have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion... The Sailor Starlights are minor characters in the manga, but are major characters in the anime for example. Please only refer to importance within the musicals. Kaolinite is more than a lackey in all versions anyway, her role in the second half of Sailor Moon S is not a lackeys job, at the time its being filled by Mimete, Tellu, Viluy and Cyprine while in the manga she's in control for over 5 acts. Count Dracul plays a far greater than Dimande in the musicals... he appears as a major character in three different storylines, Dimande appears in a major character in one, then as a minor in another. Cartwheelingfiesta 02:04, 29 June 2011 (MST)
I still don't agree with your opinion about Kaolinite's role in the musicals, Cartwheelingfiesta, and I don't think I ever will. I still think it's opinion about how important she is, which only highlights the reason why I don't want separate usages of "image song" in other articles and on this article. Kerochan no Miko 02:17, 29 June 2011 (MST)

Sorry to just butt in but... Can someone please explain to me why there is such a need to have as little songs as possible in this section. I don't understand why there is a need for this section to be as short (shorter in fact) than the other sections. I don,t get this idea of balance and all. Could someone just explain, because I don't understand why we can't just take all the songs that could possibly be image song, and eliminate the ones who do not fit the criteria of representativeness of a character (what an image song is supposed to be in the first place) one by one? I'm just plain lost here.

However I'd like to bring a point to the table: why not agree to only list a certain amount of those image songs here and note that the song are image songs in their respective article. basically what I mean is, just because a song is said to be a image song on the song's page, does not mean that song has to be part of the representative list here.-- Sailor Simon 04:32, 29 June 2011 (EST)

thats what i thought i was discussing, perhaps I need to read several hundred 'how to convey information without confusing everyone - in english' textbooks again... Cartwheelingfiesta 02:13, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Point the first: because the three sections need to be balanced so the article isn't massively huge. Articles that are too large are articles in which it's too hard to find information.
Point the second: that's being discussed elsewhere, and I personally think that's a bad idea because it has more potential for arguments. Kerochan no Miko 02:17, 29 June 2011 (MST)
But we still need to keep in mind that the musicals are primarily musical based and the musical section will have to be in the end bigger than pgsm and the anime Cartwheelingfiesta 02:18, 29 June 2011 (MST)
I don't see why it needs to be. That's my point. Kerochan no Miko 02:19, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Because there needs to be a standard on which songs are included and pretty much no matter how much you try you'll probably end up with more. My suggestion of what songs to be included actually number smaller than the anime. But I don't see why the number is such an issue when my suggestion is about the size youre asking for anyway.... Cartwheelingfiesta 02:24, 29 June 2011 (MST)
There needs to be a standard, yes, but having five more than the anime section is significantly different than having, say, twenty more. But no matter what's suggested someone is clearly going to be unhappy anyway, so I guess I'll just figure something out. Kerochan no Miko 02:34, 29 June 2011 (MST)
The anime section has about 35 songs, my suggestion section has 22 .... Cartwheelingfiesta 02:38, 29 June 2011 (MST)

Myu Songs (moved)[edit]

*** Admin note: this section was moved from the Seijaku no Hostie (Seitai) talk page to where it's more on topic, since it deviated from the original.

There has been considerable amount of debate when it comes to myu image songs, and I see no reason to add anything that isn't already listed on the image songs article unless there's discussion first; I don't care how "obvious" a song might be in one person's opinion. Kerochan no Miko 22:00, 27 June 2011 (MST)

Well let me start a discussion right here. I believe this is an image song for Mistress 9 for the exact same reason that I believe Teikou no Hana is an image song for Princess Kakyuu, that is: because they speak of who they are as characters. Now this song clearly says ``I'm the Hostie of Silence, Mistress 9, the Hostie of Silence``. In this song Mistress 9 speaks of herself and who she is, what she stands for, etc. Just like for another exemple ``Black Moon Signal``, this song is representative of that character in particular and would not make sense being song by any other character.
That being said I recognise that I should have bring it up on this talk page first before doing any edit. My bad. Sorry. -- Sailor Simon 01:24, 28 June 2011 (EST)
Actually, because that list is "representative"... as you have stated here : On that discussion page it was also agreed that image songs should be included on character articles and not on the image song article. Cartwheelingfiesta 22:27, 27 June 2011 (MST)
Since image songs are either songs that are strongly character associated (Teikou no Hana - Kakyuu) or ones that contain musical themes associated with a particular character (Dream Yume wa Ookiku - Ami). Seijaku no Hostie certainly fits the first category. Cartwheelingfiesta 22:29, 27 June 2011 (MST)
Not quite: if a song is called an "image song" then it goes on the image songs article. The Tuxedo Mask songs were debatably image songs so instead of listing them as such it was just noted in his article that they were significant songs that he performed but not specifically image songs. It's a bit of nitpicking but it works, especially in the case of myu songs that are almost all potentially an image song. And "Dream Yume wa Ookiku" isn't listed as an image song, so that doesn't count as an example.
That being said, I suppose this song could work as a Mistress 9 image song as much as "Teikou no Hana" does for Princess Kakyuu. Kerochan no Miko 23:14, 27 June 2011 (MST)
O_o ... That makes me think that we should only go with songs that have been specifically called theme songs... and not leave it up to opinion but that'll be ignored anyway... Besides... Mistress 9 is a one musical set character and pretty much every character has been given an image song in some way by these standards... Its probably best to keep to keep the image song page restricted to the important characters of the musicals with the number of appearances by Dimande being the bare minimum...(so basically the Senshi, Galaxia, Beryl, Tuxedo Kamen, Loof Merrow & Dark Plasman) if you start including Mistress 9 then you end up with Magus Collection, Black Moon Signal, Ruby no Aka, Image de Mon Pere, Kubisuji wo Sashidase and other songs that can be seen as image songs... Making the word "representative" redundant... Cartwheelingfiesta 01:14, 28 June 2011 (MST)
If you think "that'll be ignored anyway" then either don't bring it up for discussion or refrain from making cracks like that because they're anything but conducive to a civil discourse.
I entirely agree with that sentiment, which is why I've been trying to limit the image songs there listed. It has to be limited somehow, and keeping it to only the most important characters and songs seems to be the best way I've found. Which means adding this song to image songs is quite premature, so I'm removing that. Kerochan no Miko 01:35, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Okay I need to set a foot down here because I just DON'T UNDERSTAND anything anymore. Could we please stop discussing other topics than the song in question right now thank you. I don't care anout OTHER (a.k.a off topic) songs that may or may not be image songs. Please lets restric to talk about THIS PARTICULAR SONG. I did the exact same thing I did with Teikou no Hana, I presented facts (not opinions) to show that this song his INDEED associated with this particular character.

Kerochan no Miko you said: I suppose this song could work as a Mistress 9 image song as much as "Teikou no Hana" does for Princess Kakyuu.

Cartwheelingfiesta you said: Seijaku no Hostie certainly fits the first category.

So if there is nobody who disagrees that this song indeed fits the image song criterias, then I don't see why this dicussion needs to go any further. Lets just agree for THIS ONE SONG and make the changes like we did for Teikou no Hana and if there are any more dicussions about image songs in general, then I STRONGLY advise that they be taken to the image song talk page since that's what it is for. Same goes for any other songs. Their discussion pages are the only appropriate place to talk about it as you reminded me Miko-chan in the Teikou no Hana talk page when we started talking about Amazon Kara Circus Dan ga Yatte Kita.

So if there are no more objections about THIS song alone, then I will make the according changes. Also if somebody disagrees, I would like that they provide facts FROM THE SONG itself like I did. Thank you. Last reminder: this page is called Talk:Seijaku no Hostie (Seitai), so let us stick to this subject. PLEASE. BTW the fact that Mistress 9 was a one (actually two since there is a Kaiteiban) time character is irrelevant, Black Lady was a one time character and the song Black Moon Signal is indeed said to be her image song ON THIS WIKI, check the Black Lady article and the Black Moon Signal article if you don't believe me. If there are any more problems with other songs or Image Songs in general, they have their own talk page on which theses issues can be addressed. -- Sailor Simon 22:12, 28 June 2011 (EST)

sorry then X3 <3 so many capitals @_@, the discussion above is referring to whether Seijaku no Hostie should be included under the list of image songs on the image song page so its not totally irrelevant. there is no question about whether to have this called an image song on its own page Cartwheelingfiesta 22:05, 28 June 2011 (MST)
Well honestly that was my point all allong, I personnally believe that every songs that fits the criterias of image songs should be considered as such and it should be duly notted in their respective articles. I honestly cannot begin to comprehend why they should not if that is indeed what they are.
That being said, they should of course be discussed on their respective talk pages before anything is done. However, when it comes to the Image Song page and what the list on there should be composed of: it's an entirely other debate, one in which I have absolutely no interest whatsoever. If Kerochan no Miko wants the list to be representative (i.e. short), then it's her descision and while I don't agree with it, it is not my place to discuss it.
Finally in regard of this page, I don't see why it could not say that it is indeed an image song (BECAUSE it fits the criterias of such songs) for Mistress 9 while still not being part of the REPRESENTATIVE (a.k.a the new word for small) list featured in the Image Song article.
Why? because that is the case for many other songs, such as Prince of The Earth, other Tuxedo Kamen songs and Black Moon Signal who are not on the representative list, yet are still said to be an image song for Tuxedo Mask, Prince Endymion and Black Lady respectively on the songs' articles, as well as the characters' articles, which is exactly what I want to do for this song. -- Sailor Simon 01:52, 29 June 2011 (EST)
we agreed that its fine o_O another issue simply came up ... which is being discussed on the image song page now... Cartwheelingfiesta 23:03, 28 June 2011 (MST)
Then why does my edit keep getting remove^^???? -- Sailor Simon 02:06, 29 June 2011 (EST)
I didnt know it was being removed o_O Cartwheelingfiesta 23:21, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Okay, that discussion exploded and I'm not going to bother to respond point by point. To sum up: as I said in a previous comment, the "other" Tuxedo Mask songs are not image songs. Look at his article and it just says that they're other significant songs that he performed. If a song isn't listed specifically on the image songs article, then it can not be called an image song in another article, period, end of story.

And I removed the edits because, as I said when I removed them, changing the article to say it was an image song was premature because the discussion was clearly not over. As noted in this discussion and on the discussion on the image songs article, I don't see a need to list songs for every single character in the musicals, and I feel Mistress 9 isn't a significant enough character to deserve to be included on a list that's supposed to be kept as short as possible. I initially agreed that, yes, this might be considered an image song, but if you re-read what I've previously written, something Cartwheelingfiesta said made me reconsider. At this point I don't think THIS SONG should be listed as an image song, no. Kerochan no Miko 23:45, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Okay, major problem here: "I feel Mistress 9 isn't a significant enough character". That is entirely an opinion, I presented facts that shows that this song dose indeed fit the criterias of an image song. What have you brought except that you don't feel like she is significant enough. I think she is as significant as Prince Dimande who is on the so-called representative list.
The whole problem here is that you want that list kept as short as possible, which I think is just irrelevant. Why sould it matter if the list is short or long anyway, especially when it's about the Myu? BTW, represantative does not have to equal short. And why present a representative list when we could just have an accurate one instead. And if we have to go through each songs that someone thinks is an image songs and come to a conscensus on weither it is or not then that's what we'll do. Honestly that seems like the only logical and acceptable option in the Sera Myu songs case to me. I mean isn't that what a wiki is about, comming to a conscensus rather than rulling out what again, only you seems to think is ``not significant enough``.
BTW the whole ``I'm not going to bother to respond point by point`` does not show me that you really actually care what I have to say. -- Sailor Simon 03:01, 29 June 2011 (EST)
Dimande also appears in Ai no Sanctuary, which makes him in two musical sets,, however Dimande as noted on the image song page is being questioned. I would be prepared to note every possible image song X3. Cartwheelingfiesta 00:12, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Sailorsimon, I didn't "bother" to respond point by point because it would have made my comment far too long to read. If I didn't care about what you were saying I wouldn't respond at all.
That being said, what it comes down to is that if we put every single myu song that could be an image song on the image songs article that article would be 99% myu songs and far too long to read. There does come a point when I as an admin have to set boundaries on things (I don't see you arguing about how we should come to a consensus about, say, the style guidelines), and this is one of those cases: the article needs to stay at a reasonable length, and I'm trying to figure out a good limit to keep it that way. Mistress 9 is not a character who appears in very many musicals, and therefore I don't think she's significant enough to deserve a spot in a very short list. Kerochan no Miko 00:39, 29 June 2011 (MST)
99% is a little bit of an exaggeration. It would actually be around 30% at the very maximum... Cartwheelingfiesta 01:27, 29 June 2011 (MST)
I wasn't aware that I'm not allowed to use hyperbole in discussions. Kerochan no Miko 01:37, 29 June 2011 (MST)
First of all I'm saying we should all agree that a song is an image song before putting it anywhere. If a person feels a song is an image song for a certain character, she can bring it up on the song's talk page like I did and defend her point by bringing PROOFS from the songs itself to the table, we will then be able to arrive at an actual conscensus. We should take the time to examine each requests.
Take Teikou no Hana for exemple, I brought elements from the song itself to justify why it was an image song and we all agreed that it was indeed one. If we do that with every songs, yes the list is bound to get longer but also more ACCURATE.
Another exemple in which it was determined that the song was not an image song after all. Amazon Kara Circus Dan ga Yatte Kita, the conscensus was that althought it presents the Trio, the song itself serves more the purpose of making the plot go forward.
This is to show you that NO, not all songs from Myu will be automatically declared image songs and also, that you will indeed be the one with the final word. However, if someone does indeed believe a song is an image song, they should be able to bring it up on the song's talk page and discussion should take place until there is a final conscensus. If they bring substancial evidences to the table and there are no objection, then we all can agree. And if we really cannot arrive to agreement, then it is your reponsability as an admin to make the final descision. In this case I think we all agree that this indeed represent who Mistress 9 is as a character like Teikou no Hana does for Princess Kakyuu.
If we opperate like this for each possible songs, then indeed my dear Cartwheelingfiesta is right: the number of songs would be closer to 30% at the very maximum rather then 99% you estimated (hyperbole indeed!). I mean I consider myself pretty rational when it comes to this and I'm not going to go on every Myu song saying they are image songs. If I found a sufficient amount of proof, then yess I will bring it up first, but honestly I would not do that unless it was oublivious like in this case (I mean come on! She literally refers to herself by name here!).
Honestly THIS is the point that I absolutely don't understand: there are certain criterias that determine what is and is not an image song. If THIS song does fit these criterias, why is not an image song? I just don't see AT ALL what Mistress 9 having fewer appeareances than other characters as to do with this song being an image songs for her. What, all of the sudden only primary characters are allowed to have image songs? That's just bogus and discriminatory. The debate here SHOULD NOT be weither Mistress 9 is an important or significant character enough. It should be weither or not this song fits the criterias of image song, which I think you all agreed, it does.
Second of all, AGAIN with this list, look I told you millions of times: I do not care which ones you put on there. AGAIN I would like to bring back the Black Moon Signal article exemple. It clearly reads ``is an image song for Black lady``. Black Lady appeared in as many musical as Mistress 9 and is not listed on the REPRESENTATIVE list and I'm totally FINE with that. That is why I called order in the first place. Why could we not just do the EXACT same thing with this song and other such songs. They don't all have to be featured on the Image Song article's representative list since it is supposed to be representative in the first place and that's what the note is there for: to explain that althought there are more image song per say, the list below is meant to be representative and that is why it does not feature them all. -- Sailor Simon 04:32, 29 June 2011 (EST)
The situation with Teikou no Hana and this one are entirely different. If you want this one considered only on its own merits, there's no point in bringing up other articles as well. (And I hadn't noticed that Black Moon Signal was described as an image song; it shouldn't be and I brought that up on the correct talk page.)
Also, my comment was about the article being 99% myu songs, not that myu songs are 99% image songs. To restate my point, if we listed every myu song that could potentially be an image song, it would vastly outnumber the anime/PGSM songs and the lists should be balanced at least somewhat.
My point is that it doesn't fit all the criteria for a myu image song: if it were from the anime, there'd be no question, but given that we're limiting the myu songs listed it doesn't necessarily fit. What it comes down to, though, is that this discussion won't be resolved until the discussion on the image songs article is, so there's no point in continuing this for the moment. Kerochan no Miko 01:45, 29 June 2011 (MST)
hahaha no, all i meant was a minor character like Mistress 9 should not be included on the image song page. not that this shouldnt be listed as an image song. I would never discriminate against Mistress 9 or she'd team up with Black Lady and marinate my arms in sadness =\ I think theres a different issue on listing it here as an image song and listing songs on the image song page. Cartwheelingfiesta 01:59, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Ah, I see. Well, that creates a new problem, where some people might think a song is an "image song" and some people won't (see all the fighting over the terminology for "battle song" which is something I don't want to start again) so I don't really want to specifically say something is an image song without it being on the list. Kerochan no Miko 02:03, 29 June 2011 (MST)
The problem with 'battle song' is a mix up with the phrases 'battle' (PinkyTyphoon/SolarMiracleMakeUp etc) and 'theme' (Hereafter/La Soldier etc.). Although its distinct in Japan, its not clear in the West and isnt totally relevant here. The definition of an image song should either be i) a song that contains a musical theme connected to a character, although this is ignored here since the majority are instrumentals. (eg Tuxedo Kamen no Toujou Theme/Henshin! Les Soldiers) ii) a song which is connected to a character without being too relevant to the plot . (Seijaku no Hostie/Galaxia Gorgeous/Tuxedo Kamen) Cartwheelingfiesta 02:12, 29 June 2011 (MST)
But then you bring in user opinion as to whether a song is connected and not "too relevant." Kerochan no Miko 02:13, 29 June 2011 (MST)
If an event happens as a result of this song then it is not an image song, unless that event if the introduction of a character. This was why Amazon Kara Circus Dan ga Yatte Kita doesnt fit the criteria for a image song on this wikia, wasn't it? That the song not only introduced the Trio but invited the girls into the Circus itself... Cartwheelingfiesta 02:16, 29 June 2011 (MST)
I suppose that's one way of explaining it. But I still don't want the separate usage— just see how large of an argument sprang just from this song, for example. I don't want this happening on a regular basis. Kerochan no Miko 02:20, 29 June 2011 (MST)
I don't personally think the words 'image song' to an article is a major change that needs discussion before being added. I think like most other posts it should remain unless there's a problem with it... I had no problems with naming this an image song, or with Teikou no Hana or Black Moon Signal, I just felt that they dont need to be on the image song article Cartwheelingfiesta 02:29, 29 June 2011 (MST)
If I need to wave the admin flag in this instance, I will. I do not think that anything not on the image songs list should be called an image song, simply because it invites issues that I don't want to become such. Kerochan no Miko 02:31, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Then there is hardly a need for the word 'representative'... o_O i don't understand this argument I'm calling it a day and going to write things on Esmeraude's page and translate Miss Dream or something... Cartwheelingfiesta 02:37, 29 June 2011 (MST)
The list is "representative" as in it contains some examples of image songs. I don't see how that's difficult to understand? Kerochan no Miko 02:46, 29 June 2011 (MST)
Hold the phone! Didn't you just say "it contains some examples of image songs" ergo not all images songs? I mean hello that is what I have been saying all along: not all songs that are image songs are bound to be on that representative list since, just like you said it only contains "some" examples. Sailor Simon 00:43, July 3rd 2011 (EST)
I have been saying from the beginning that the image songs article is a representative list, and thus only contains examples of image songs. Is this a problem? Kerochan no Miko 23:13, 2 July 2011 (MST)
On the contrary, if the list only contains example, then what is the problem with having other articles say that a song is an image song and not necessarily be on the representative list. That is the point I believe I was discussing the entire time. I see no reason why this song could not be an image song just because it is no featured on the example list.Sailor Simon 13:31, July 3rd 2011 (EST)
Because, as I said several times, I don't want to start arguments over terminology (although I'm clearly far too late for that). Some people think songs are image songs, some people think they aren't, so if a song isn't on the image songs list it's personal interpretation whether or not a song is an image song. Kerochan no Miko 11:47, 3 July 2011 (MST)