Difference between revisions of "Template talk:Civilian Identities"

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::: " civilian identity is an identity that is entirely separate from their Senshi identity, normally used to keep people from realizing that said Senshi is a Senshi. If they don't switch between a Senshi form and an "ordinary" form then" this definition makes the Samael Quartet 'civilians'. While the Oppositio Senshi should be added to the 'sailor senshi' template. CereCere and the others, awaken as Sailor Senshi during the musical, they transform alongside Chibiusa in order to battle later on... Under your defition of civilian, Princess Kakyuu should be removed. CereCere is a girl born from a Samael Flask. Sailor Ceres is a soldier under Sailor Chibimoon. [[User:Cartwheelingfiesta|Cartwheelingfiesta]] 12:57, 8 September 2011 (MST)
 
::: " civilian identity is an identity that is entirely separate from their Senshi identity, normally used to keep people from realizing that said Senshi is a Senshi. If they don't switch between a Senshi form and an "ordinary" form then" this definition makes the Samael Quartet 'civilians'. While the Oppositio Senshi should be added to the 'sailor senshi' template. CereCere and the others, awaken as Sailor Senshi during the musical, they transform alongside Chibiusa in order to battle later on... Under your defition of civilian, Princess Kakyuu should be removed. CereCere is a girl born from a Samael Flask. Sailor Ceres is a soldier under Sailor Chibimoon. [[User:Cartwheelingfiesta|Cartwheelingfiesta]] 12:57, 8 September 2011 (MST)
 
::::I'm not discussing this with you any more. No. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 17:33, 8 September 2011 (MST)
 
::::I'm not discussing this with you any more. No. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 17:33, 8 September 2011 (MST)
 +
::::: No need for the attitude. I simply felt that the musical version of the Quartet was not discussed. [[User:Cartwheelingfiesta|Cartwheelingfiesta]] 19:38, 8 September 2011 (MST)

Revision as of 22:38, 8 September 2011

This template was hard to find <..<

Propose for

Miss Butterfly, Miss Dream, Sin, Nabu, Nergal, Marduk, Ishitar and Shiva to be added to the template and have
Chuuko Nezu/Chuu Rat, Reiko Aya/Half Bird and Akane Karasuma/Manila Karasu instead of just anime identies
Also to have CereCere, PallaPalla, JunJun and VesVes separated... Cartwheelingfiesta 23:11, 10 April 2011 (MST)
Do the Oppositio Senshi have civilian identities?
I don't really know that the Amazoness Quartet count as "civilian identities" as such; they were simply warped versions of Sailor Senshi. I'm wondering why they're on there. Kerochan no Miko 23:25, 10 April 2011 (MST)
Those are the oppositio senshi identities. Their real names and Senshi names are the same thing. They are not warped versions, they were discontent citizens of Crystal Tokyo given senshi powers by Apsu... Nabu, Nergal, Marduk and Sin were chosen... Ishtar, was just walked into the tractor beam. CereCere is ... Sailor Ceres o.o Cartwheelingfiesta 23:27, 10 April 2011 (MST)
What do you mean the Amazoness Quartet are warped senshi? They're the identities they take on Earth prior to being Sailor Senshi Cartwheelingfiesta 23:35, 10 April 2011 (MST)
If they're Senshi then they don't have civilian identities to list. They'd need to have a different identity to qualify.
As for the Quartet, IIRC they were truly intended to be the Asteroid Senshi, but Nehellenia found and warped them into the enemies they became. They didn't switch back and forth between a civilian identity and a Senshi one, once they were purified they stayed Senshi. Kerochan no Miko 23:42, 10 April 2011 (MST)
Their names were the same. Before they were Senshi. They were called Ishtar and Nabu. After they became Senshi, they kept the same names. In civilian form she is called "Sin" as a Sailor Senshi she is also called "Sin". Have you played the game?...
There's no evidence at all for that at all, we don't know what they got up to in Crystal Tokyo or what happened to them after Transylvania no Mori. In the musicals. They were not "warped" into villains. They were a little brainwashed, they were senshi and their names were given CereCere, PallaPalla, JunJun and VesVes. They are Senshi and on Earth they were known as those names, which is what a civilian identity is. Cartwheelingfiesta 23:48, 10 April 2011 (MST)
I don't understand your logic, in the manga and musicals. CereCere became Sailor Ceres. That was her identity as a civilian. She is a Sailor Senshi. Cartwheelingfiesta 23:50, 10 April 2011 (MST)
A civilian identity is an identity that is entirely separate from their Senshi identity, normally used to keep people from realizing that said Senshi is a Senshi. If they don't switch between a Senshi form and an "ordinary" form then... they don't have a separate civilian identity.
According to the manga the Asteroid Senshi were intended to be the Asteroid Senshi but were awakened and brainwashed by Nehellenia. Therefore, the Amazoness Quartet isn't their "civilian form" it's their brainwashed form, like Sailor Mercury vs. Dark Mercury. Kerochan no Miko 00:23, 11 April 2011 (MST)
Thats not true for any of the Solar System senshi but Setsuna. They were born, they discovered they were Sailor Senshi. Unless you're going to deny that Usagi Tsukino is not a civilian. Akumi was the civilian form of Dark Mercury... Its not relevant. Akumi might need to be added too... Since she's so different to regular Ami. The Amazoness Quartet do NOT have Sailor Senshi powers. They just have a type of magic from their Amazon Stones. The Sailor Quartet were discovered to be the Amazoness Quartet. The same way with any other character who did not disguise themselves. The Amazoness Quartet existed as civilians, they lived on Earth and lived in a community alongside humans. Also in the musicals they were born from Chibiusa's star seed and were Senshi and giving civilian names. I'm not sure what your argument is. Besides even if they were brainwashed, they were still given civilian identities weren't they? Whats your argument. A civilian form in most cases is not chosen. As for the Oppositio Senshi, their Senshi names and civilian names happen to be the same. They however are different forms just like Usagi and Sailor Moon. Thats kind of the point. Cartwheelingfiesta 00:37, 11 April 2011 (MST)
...at this point I have no idea what your argument is. Of course Usagi is a civilian. What does that have to do with anything...? Kerochan no Miko 00:53, 11 April 2011 (MST)
CereCere awoke to be Sailor Ceres. Its got nothing to do with her being brainwashed. "What if Nehellenia never awoke her to be CereCere, then she wouldn't be called that", thats all I can see your argument as. In "Sailor Moon'" it happened. There is no alternative. What did happen is that she became CereCere, then she awoke to be Sailor Ceres. She lived as the civilian CereCere. Same goes with the other three girls. I'm comparing Cere to Usagi, Usagi was Usagi, she lived as civilian Usagi, Usagi became Sailor Moon. The Oppositio Senshi became Sailor Senshi, but they did not receive new names, thats all. They have different forms for civilian and Senshi, they just have the same name. Cartwheelingfiesta 00:57, 11 April 2011 (MST)
CereCere was never a civilian, though. She was a brainwashed minion of Nehellenia, then she was a Sailor Senshi. She never had an "ordinary" civilian identity. And if the Oppositio Senshi didn't have separate civilian and Senshi identities I don't know how we're supposed to list them as civilians when they were Senshi. Kerochan no Miko 01:07, 11 April 2011 (MST)
Again, the Oppositio were not always Senshi. Apsu gave them the power to become senshi. They were regular people beforehand. CereCere in the musicals and manga were not "brainwashed", she had her own will, she was naive. She was a civilian during the Yume arc, just because she was inside a circus most of the time doesn't mean shes not a civilian. Civilian means "not a soldier" in usual english. She did not fight most of the time. She was a trapeze artist who sprinkles flowers on people while PallaPalla did the work. In the musicals this was the same thing minus the circus. What are YOU defining as a civilianCartwheelingfiesta 02:18, 11 April 2011 (MST)
Before they were Senshi they were simply civilians. Not civilian identities of Senshi. And once they were Senshi, they no longer had civilian identities. This... doesn't seem all that complicated to me, so I really don't understand why you keep arguing with me about it.
And since you keep using CereCere as an example, she also never had a separate identity. She was a minion of the Dead Moon who happened to like being a trapeze artist when she wasn't trying to steal Dream Mirrors. She wasn't an entirely different identity with a different name and a different life - even when she was attacking people she'd introduce herself as a trapeze artist who, oh by the way, works for Nehellenia. She wasn't sometimes CereCere the Amazoness and sometimes Cindy Smith, the trapeze artist. Again, there was no separation between "civilian" and "agent of the Dead Moon." Kerochan no Miko 02:21, 11 April 2011 (MST)
It doesn't make a difference. Just because she's associated with the Dead Moon doesn't make her any less of a civilian. Not all civilians are pure and good. What difference does it make? CereCere BECAME Sailor Ceres. That does NOT make CereCere redundant. Usagi became Neo-Queen Serenity. That doesn't mean Usagi is no longer a civilian. On Earth she went by CereCere as a trapeze artist for the Dead Moon Circus. Besides you've completely ignored the musicals. CereCere the Amazoness is a civilian because she took that identity on Earth. Her connected to an evil syndicate makes her nothing less of a civilian. Also Dream Mirrors are present in the ANIME only. CereCere was NEVER Sailor Ceres there. Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks Cere is the form Sailor Ceres took as a civilian as the Amazoness Quartet is listed on the panel already, I'm just saying they should be separated.
Once again: On Earth, Sailor Ceres took on the name CereCere, this is her civilian form, as opposed to her Senshi form regardless of her connection to Nehellenia. This wikia is written in the past tense anyway, "CereCere was the civilian identity of Sailor Ceres"... this is true as CereCere became Sailor Ceres. End of story.
As for the Oppositio Senshi, they are not notable enough to receive separate articles for civilian and Senshi forms. Regardless there is a change in form between the two forms, they share the same name. The articles just need to be expanded to discuss the differences. Cartwheelingfiesta 20:50, 11 April 2011 (MST)
...of course it makes a difference. If they're not a civilian then they aren't a "civilian identity." Usagi is a civilian and CereCere isn't, so your comparison doesn't really work. I'm not ignoring the musicals or anything else, I simply don't see CereCere as an ordinary human being doing ordinary human being stuff and a person entirely different from CereCere the Amazoness. There is no "end of story" here because I honestly don't think you're even listening to what I'm trying to say. (And I'm seriously confused why you're throwing in stuff about the wiki being in past tense considering that nowhere on this side that I've found does it refer to CereCere as the "civilian identity of Sailor Ceres".) And it's the same with the Oppositio Senshi: it's not that they aren't notable enough to have separate articles, it's that they don't have separate identities to have articles about. Kerochan no Miko 21:16, 11 April 2011 (MST)
... The Oppositio Senshi's civilian and Senshi forms are quite different, they just have the same name. Have you played the game in full? Why is CereCere NOT a civilian? She has been shown in the manga/musical to do things outside the Dead Moon, performing, advertising, having fun, walking around with the other three, playing around etcetera, how does that make her any different from Usagi? I didn't say it said anywhere on the wikia. I meant saying "CereCere was the civilian form of Sailor Ceres". Yes she was Sailor Ceres, as a civilian. Why is CereCere different from Usagi or anyone else? Setsuna was never shown to do anything outside being Pluto except for once eating icecream and living in a house. CereCere is as much a civilian as Usagi Tsukino, Lulu Teruno, Haruna Sakurada or Edwards. Just because she has a second life doesn't make her any less of a civilian. I meant the current template says "The Amazoness Quartet" on it already. So someone already agrees with me. Cartwheelingfiesta 21:39, 11 April 2011 (MST)
CereCere isn't a civilian. Civilians have normal lives in which they go to school or work or act like an ordinary human being without special powers. The fact that someone added the Quartet to this template only means that one person thought that they fit at some point in the five-year history of this wiki, and now that it's called to my attention I don't know why. And seriously, I don't know why I'm still arguing this with you because it's like talking to a brick wall for all that you're listening to the points I'm making. Suffice it to say, no, I will not add the Oppositio Senshi, and no, I don't think the Quartet belongs on here. Kerochan no Miko 00:58, 12 April 2011 (MST)
Bleh whatever, the Amazoness Quartet ARE employed at a Circus and they make money. Just because they are on the brink of insanity, their powers are magic, characters like Sakiko have had magic too, doesn't mean they aren't civilians, they make money for Zirconia as shown in the manga. The Animamates should not make the list either in that case, they may work at Ginga Terebi, but they too possess magical power. Only then ten solar system senshi, Luna Tsukino, Shiva, The Starlights and Kakyuu should make this list then. As civilian is defined as "a person whose primary occupation is civil or nonmilitary", any character who has a distinct form outside of being a Sailor Senshi should really be included. It just happens to be a coincidence they share the same name.
Because we can't agree on a what a civilian identity is I propose, Usagi, Ami, Rei, Makoto, Minako, Setsuna, Hotaru, Michiru, Haruka, Chibiusa, Luna, Shiva, Three Lights and Chibichibi to be included only (but under your definition I'm iffy with Chibichibi). A Princess is not a civilian so Princess Kakyuu probably shouldn't be included. The Animamates work at Ginga Terebi, the same way the Quartet does in the manga, if the Quartet is not included they should not be either. The only difference is that they have given themselves aliases. Besides I don't understand the point that youre making other than "CereCere is evil she cannot be a civilian." while I'm saying "CereCere is an employee of a Circus Trouple, making her a civilian regardless of what she does outside of work (we all have private lives too..) Cartwheelingfiesta 01:31, 12 April 2011 (MST)
It's not a coincidence, they're the same person. Occam's Razor, seriously. I'll look at the template later and see what fits the definition of civilian (and how exactly a "princess" isn't a civilian I have no idea; see Princess Dia and Princess Rubina). Kerochan no Miko 01:38, 12 April 2011 (MST)
Because attacking a palace isn't attacking "civilians", in English they wouldn't be considered civilians... Sailor Moon and Usagi are the same person. Occam's Razor works both ways here. In your opinion they are not civilians. In my opinion they are. I'm not sure what YOU would call CereCere then o.O. Cartwheelingfiesta 01:46, 12 April 2011 (MST)
In the Sailor Moon universe a "civilian" is pretty much anyone who is neither Senshi nor enemy (or in some cases, Senshi allies, like Perle or suchlike). I would call CereCere a member of the Amazoness Quartet (or Samael Quartet, depending), a member of the Dead Moon, and a villain of the series. Kerochan no Miko 01:49, 12 April 2011 (MST)
Well you could have defined that as a civilian some twenty posts ago. So do you agree the Animamates should not be part of this list anymore either? But in the musicals, they weren't really villains they were more just following along, like Aaron and Mana. Cartwheelingfiesta 01:53, 12 April 2011 (MST)
...what else have I been saying this entire time. -_-
I'll think about it later. Kerochan no Miko 02:15, 12 April 2011 (MST)
Okays Cartwheelingfiesta 02:17, 12 April 2011 (MST)

I have to agree with Kerochan no Miko on this one. The Sailor Quartet only existed in the Manga and Musical. In the manga they WERE brainwashed by Nehellenia into becoming the Amazon Quartet: I.E. CereCere, PallaPalla, JunJun and VesVes are villains and not the civilian identities of the Sailor Quartet. Nothing and I mean nothing shows that Sailor Ceres ever used the identity CereCere ever again after being free from Nehelenia's influence. For all that was given as information, CereCere was not even her real human name if she even had one. In other words, Sailor Ceres never had a civilian identity like Sailor Moon is Usagi. Ndehellenia found the quartet sleeping in their Asteroids before their real awakening and basically created their evil personas. The evil Amazon Quartet did assume civilian identities (like PallaPalla working at a Pet Shop selling fish (Fisheye)) but the Sailor Quartet never assumed any civilian identities after becoming the Sailor Quartet according to any official sources.

As for The Animamates, they should stay there: They were Sailor Senshi who created civilian identities for themselves just like Pluto did. And I don't know which musical your talking about because the Animamates were villains, they weren't just following around like Aaron and Mana, they attacked the Sailor Senshi and with great pleasure may I had. Again no opinion on the Oppositio Senshi as I'm not even sure they qualify as Sailor Senshi. Sailor Simon 21:21, 16 April 2011 (EST)

Haha, honestly, I think we should just drop this now. I'm sure if someone agrees with what I think that they are civilians. They can type in CereCere into the searchbox and find the information there. I just think just because the likes of CereCere is evil doesn't mean she can't be a civilian. She makes money as a trapeze artist and such, she walks around outside the circus and does as she feelss like. There was no differentiation in name between CereCere the trapeze artist and CereCere the amazoness. So it all comes down to personal belief. The definition of a Sailor Senshi is vague, especially as Another Story canon only includes up to the Mugen Arc. So its time to just leave it now. They are NOT called Sailor Sin or such because that kind of wrecks the whole point XD "I'm going to align myself to Neo-Queen Serenity when really I want her to die" doesn't fly with me. So again, just time to drop it. Cartwheelingfiesta 20:34, 16 April 2011 (MST)
Hate to bring up an old discussion but according to the "Sailor Moon: Another Story" manual...

Regarding Sin: "セーラー戦士での。 あたしみたい♡" (The manual is written as if it was Usagi speaking, literally saying "She's a Sailor Soldier. Just like me ♡". So the Oppositio should be counted as Sailor Senshi... In addition to that, in the musical "Transylvania no Mori" and its kateiban. CereCere becomes Sailor Ceres as do the others of the Quartet. In that version of the series, that is her civilian form. It is not a 'villain' form, this is the form given after she was born from the flask. She was already destined to be a Sailor Senshi by the time Lilith of Darkness came and took them into her care. They probably should be added to the right templates. Cartwheelingfiesta 00:05, 8 September 2011 (MST)

Oop sorry i didn't realise I was linking, I was just showing that wasn't part of the quote X3 Cartwheelingfiesta 00:57, 8 September 2011 (MST)
This discussion was already over some time ago. That quote doesn't change matters at all - it's not about "villain" vs Sailor Senshi, it's the fact that she isn't a "civilian" by the definition of a civilian being used here. Kerochan no Miko 06:08, 8 September 2011 (MST)
" civilian identity is an identity that is entirely separate from their Senshi identity, normally used to keep people from realizing that said Senshi is a Senshi. If they don't switch between a Senshi form and an "ordinary" form then" this definition makes the Samael Quartet 'civilians'. While the Oppositio Senshi should be added to the 'sailor senshi' template. CereCere and the others, awaken as Sailor Senshi during the musical, they transform alongside Chibiusa in order to battle later on... Under your defition of civilian, Princess Kakyuu should be removed. CereCere is a girl born from a Samael Flask. Sailor Ceres is a soldier under Sailor Chibimoon. Cartwheelingfiesta 12:57, 8 September 2011 (MST)
I'm not discussing this with you any more. No. Kerochan no Miko 17:33, 8 September 2011 (MST)
No need for the attitude. I simply felt that the musical version of the Quartet was not discussed. Cartwheelingfiesta 19:38, 8 September 2011 (MST)