Editing Talk:Prince Demande

==Spelling==

Kuroyanagi, please familiarise yourself with the [[WikiMoon:Page move policy|rules]]. And while this spelling is undoubtedly up for debate, since when did Ian Miller's spellings become gospel? [[User:Dooky|dooky]] 11:57, 24 September 2006 (MST)
:Does this need to get moved back? [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 12:50, 24 September 2006 (MST)

:But wait, why is ''Dimande'' a better spelling than ''Demand''? [[User:Dosei No Senshi|Dosei No Senshi]] 08:13, 6 December 2006 (MST)
::We [[WikiMoon talk:A guide to common character names|already had this argument]]...I believe the basic reason for it was "nobody is going to agree on a spelling anyway, so we're going with ADV's spelling." [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 11:37, 6 December 2006 (MST)

==Born on Earth or born on Nemesis==

Where does it say in the manga that they sought for Neo Queen Serenity to allow them to return to Earth? It's my understanding that they initially lived in Crystal Tokyo and went with Wiseman to Nemesis. They weren't born on Nemesis. --[[User:Chains of Fate|Chains of Fate]] 22:36, 1 February 2008 (MST)

:In Act 19 Diana calls them "the descendants of traitors." [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 22:43, 1 February 2008 (MST)
::That's not answering my question. If it were to be true that they were born on Nemesis, where does it say that they initially planned to ask Neo Queen Serenity to "allow them to return to Earth?"

::However they were in fact born on Earth, not Nemesis. In Act 20 of the manga:

::"Yes," Dimande says. "I wanted to show you that the Mystical Silver Crystal isn't the only thing that carries immense strength. The fantasy world of long life and infinite power... Our planet Earth... We didn't like it." 

::(Demand stands with Safir, Rubeus, and Esmeraude. They stare at the sparkling Crystal Palace.) 

::(Wiseman appears.) 

::"Young traitors," he says. "If you desire power, go to Nemesis. If you want to have everything... Get the Evil Black Crystal." --[[User:Chains of Fate|Chains of Fate]] 12:48, 2 February 2008 (MST)

:::The section you quoted there does not say they were born on Earth - it just says that Wiseman told them Nemesis would give them power. But neither does it say they were born on Nemesis. I don't recall the manga ever stating either way. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 13:02, 2 February 2008 (MST)

::::I think it's pretty obvious from "Our planet Earth, we didn't like it." that they were born on Earth. Why would they refer to it as their planet, and if they were on Nemesis, why would Wiseman tell them to go there? It wouldn't make sense. --[[User:Chains of Fate|Chains of Fate]] 19:08, 2 February 2008 (MST)

:::::One, it would be nice if you would keep the conversational thread indentations going so I don't have to keep adding them to keep track. Two, you're not quoting the manga, you're quoting Alex Glover's translation of the manga. And while that quote might ''imply'' that they were from Earth, nowhere does it ''say'' "we were born on Earth." And without solid proof you can't say for certain one way or another. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 19:31, 2 February 2008 (MST)

::::::First of all, even in the Mixx translation Dimande refers to Earth as "Our planet Earth." You can't draw from that and the fact that Wiseman told them to go to Nemesis (also from the Mixx translation) that they are indeed from Earth? I don't think it requires more proof than that, it's common sense based on blatant references that they were born on and lived on Earth for a time. --[[User:Chains of Fate|Chains of Fate]] 20:14, 2 February 2008 (MST)

:::::::The Mixx translation is ''hardly'' the be-all and end-all of expert translations. And we're going by the original Japanese version for general facts here, anyway. I went and actually checked the original, and found that Dimande referred to "わが星地球" - "わが" I will accept as "our," but he doesn't specify ''how'' it's "our" Earth. I will allow that they ''lived'' on Earth for some unknown length of time, again, there is absolutely nowhere, not one place, that says they were ''born'' on Earth. Period. End of story. Unless you can find somewhere in the manga where Dimande or someone says "we were born on Earth" (which you won't, because they didn't) then yes, it does require more proof to say in the article that they were born on Earth. I removed the part about them being born on Nemesis though, because, again, no proof. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 20:26, 2 February 2008 (MST)

::::::::I said the Mixx translation and both Alex Glover's translation said about the same thing, I wasn't just referring to Mixx's translation. My main point is you have no reason to believe that they were born on Nemesis, and I think it's obvious that they were born on Earth. Yes, you've changed that part, but I don't see why there isn't enough evidence to say that they were born on Earth. Just because Dimande doesn't directly say "We were born on Earth," doesn't mean they weren't. He presents enough information to draw that conclusion. It would be dumb for Wiseman to tell them to go to Nemesis and find the Black Crystal if they lived there, obviously he couldn't as that would mean they were already there. There's no reason to believe that they were born on Nemesis and only lived on Earth for a time, either. --[[User:Chains of Fate|Chains of Fate]] 20:39, 2 February 2008 (MST)

:::::::::It's possible they were born on Earth. Maybe even likely. But since that fact was never '''stated'', it's also possible they were born on Mars, Jupiter, or Kinmoku (even though all of the above are extremely unlikely). You're mistaking conjecture for fact here. You can ''not'' present something as a fact if it is not a fact. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 20:41, 2 February 2008 (MST)

::::::::::Fair enough. The reason I'm so adamant about coming up with a finalized conclusion is for the sake of the story in my role playing video game culmination of the series, which I'm trying to make as accurate as possible to the original story of the manga. I'm also trying to preserve Naoko's original intentions and story. I can settle for the removal of the tidbit about them being born on Nemesis. --[[User:Chains of Fate|Chains of Fate]] 20:53, 2 February 2008 (MST)

==Descendants of criminals==
Yes, Diana calls the Black Moon Clan as "descendants of traitors", but doesn't King Endymion admit later on that they had only thought this because they had the same black crescent on their foreheads, but because the Black Moon Clan doesn't have the system of long life-spans like the Earth, they can't be really sure? I recall he said: we don't know if they're his descendants or not"... unless it was just one particular translation. (Okay, I've copied and pasted the four tildes that are said to sign a comment, I hope it works this time around)[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 18:08, 30 April 2008 (MST)
:You can type "~" by holding the shift key. ^^ --[[User:210|210]] 19:05, 30 April 2008 (MST)
::Thanks, used to have a better hang of these things last year, when I first registered, but after a year of absence I realize I forgot lot of stuff (Hope the sysops don't hate me too much, I think I've been getting on their nerves)^^. Anyway, my previous post was not to refute the possibility that the Black Moon might've been born on Nemesis, just that it isn't certain they're his descendants, therefore it's not certain they're the descendants of criminals as it says on the page? Like I said, Diana claimed they were,but then King Endymion admitted it wasn't certain, and they had only thought of it as a possibility since they had the same crescent mark as the criminal, Death Phantom.[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 22:50, 30 April 2008 (MST)
:::Do you have a citation for where King Endymion says that? [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 09:44, 1 May 2008 (MST)
::::Here it is: 

::::Extracts from Act 20 Nemesis/Complications

:::(Take note that Diana's outburst of "They're descendants of criminals/traitors!" happens in the previous act, Act 19 Crystal Tokyo/King Endymion)

::::The following is the of a fragment of Act 20 Nemesis's translation by Anita Sengupta, edition by Joel Baral, which appeared in Chixx Comic - Sailor Moon Comic # 14 © 1999  

::::''KING: Centuries ago, on Earth, in Crystal Tokyo, there was a person that revived the crime and murder (...) The Mad Dictator Phatom. He had the Black Crescent symbol on his forehead. (...) He was captured and sent to Nemesis (...) Finally peace returned, but(...) Rebels from the Black Moon appeared. (...)''

::::''LUNA: The same Black Crescent was on their foreheads. Are the Black Moon descendents of Phantom?''

::::''KING: They have not been given eternal life. The Phantom's time is buried several centuries in the past. Even they may not know if they're descendents of Phantom. But it was as if they were drawn to each other. To go to that planet.''

::::(The following is the translation by Kurozuki (manga@kurozuki.com) which appears in the Kurozuki site. *I think that's Alex Globber's?*) 

::::''_Once... Centuries ago (...) He brought crime and slaughter. The leader appeared... The insane ruler, Phantom. A black crescent moon mark adorned his forehead. (...) Neo-Queen Selenity, (...) banished him to Nemesis.  Peace soon returned,(...) Then the traitors appeared and declared themselves the Black Moon. They said they would kill the Moon Kingdom.'' 

::::''_The same black moon mark on their foreheads... -says Luna- Are they the descendants of Phantom?'' 

::::''_They don't have the system of long life. Phantom was buried centuries before, so we don't know whether they are or not...'' 

::::In both translations, as you can see, the matter of whether they are his descendants or not is left ambiguous.[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 09:32, 2 May 2008 (MST)

:::::First, "Kurozuki" is Alex ''Glover''.
:::::Second, you have two different issues here. Diana is talking about them being "descendants of traitors." Endymion is talking about them being descendants of a ''specific'' criminal, that being Phantom. They very well might be descendants of other traitors and/or criminals; it's never specified. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 09:59, 2 May 2008 (MST)
:::::P.S. When I ask for a cite, all you have to give me is the location (act/page/episode/whatver) - I can look it up myself without needing to clutter up pages with massive blocks of text. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 10:01, 2 May 2008 (MST)
::::::Yes, but like you said yourself, they ''might'' be, which means they either are, or they're not. When King Endymion starts talking about Phantom in that quote, it's because Luna asks: "King, how long has this dispute with the Black Moon been going on? When did they first appear?" and then he talks about Phantom. Therefore, for King Endymion, Phantom was the first of the Black Moon to appear, centuries ago. He doesn't mention any other traitors, and Diana, who is also present, doesn't mention any other, or add any other clues when King Endymion says they're not sure whether they're his descendants or not. If there were other traitors, wouldn't Diana have mentioned it then, when all the information they had could be vital in figuring out who and what they were up against? It's not like the characters to withhold information, when they have it.
::::::P.S. Understood (does that mean you have access to the different translations?) I didn't find one of those quotes online, therefore did not have any web address address to give you. I know not everyone trust Glover's, that's why I added another.[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 11:09, 2 May 2008 (MST)
::::::I just though, "descendants of traitors" could just mean Phantom's bloodline? An entire bloodline of traitors.[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 11:24, 2 May 2008 (MST)
:::::::''Yes, but like you said yourself, they ''might'' be, which means they either are, or they're not.''
:::::::Not true. In this case, they might be, which only means "they might be." Diana called them descendants of criminals and traitors, and there's nothing that definitively disproves that, therefore it stays.
:::::::And I don't need to look at quotes online, I have the manga. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 12:16, 2 May 2008 (MST)
::::::::Well I'm not really convinced, but it's just a detail. By the way, which version of the manga you have? Which translation? Do you know of any sites that have other translations, other than Kurozuki's? (Er, if this is off topic, you can answer in my talk page?)[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 13:06, 2 May 2008 (MST)
:::::::::You don't have to be "convinced," I'm just telling you that, without evidence one way or the other, it can't be stated as fact in the article. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 13:29, 2 May 2008 (MST)
::::::::::''You don't have to be convinced''
::::::::::I know that, that's why I said "but it's just a detail". That was my way of compromising. I wasn't trying to get something to be stated as fact in the article, but merely for something on it to be consider for some modification. Like, I don't know, for example instead of saying "they're descendants of traitors", saying "they were believed to be descendants of past traitors").That was my only inquiry.[[User:CosmicUsagi|CosmicUsagi]] 13:48, 2 May 2008 (MST)

== Innocent Demand ==

Maybe, Demand is the correct spelling, since it was used officially in the myu song Innocent Demand? Not sure if anyone's picked that up or if it's complete rubbish XP. Just a possibility[[User:Have a niceity|Have_a_niceity]] 22:37, 23 July 2011 (MST)

: An argument that has been discussed to death. Dimande is the spelling used here because regardless someone will be unhappy... Besides the song doesn't say anything about his name being Demand. It could merely be a pun or what Fuyumori-sensei thought it was. >..> Didn't I suggest this to you and you told me it was 'Dimande' o.o Although I think its Demand I don't see a real need to discuss it... [[User:Cartwheelingfiesta|Cartwheelingfiesta]] 23:12, 23 July 2011 (MST)

:: XP I forgot sorry. yeah it probably was a pun or something like that, Innocent DEMAND o_o he's so innocent in his demands.[[User:Have a niceity|Have_a_niceity]] 23:14, 23 July 2011 (MST)

::: I must have been thinking about dumplings when you told me oops.0_0[[User:Have a niceity|Have_a_niceity]] 23:14, 23 July 2011 (MST)

::::His name is a play on the "Diamond", it unrelated to "Demand" that is a word, and Inocent Demand songwriter is Saiki Junya not Fuyumori Kayoko! >_< [[User:Shino1175|shino1175]] 04:42, 11 September 2011 (MST)

:::::If there is a problem with the "Innocent Demand" article that needs to be discussed there, not here. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 08:05, 11 September 2011 (MST)
@@ Line 96: / Line 96: @@
 :::::If there is a problem with the "Innocent Demand" article that needs to be discussed there, not here. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] 08:05, 11 September 2011 (MST)
-==Spelling Again==
-I realized that I brought this up on the [[WikiMoon talk:A guide to common character names#Black Moon Clan|name spelling guide]] but not here, so just to be certain - I'm going to move this over to Prince Demande, now that we have more official sources that are using that spelling. [[User:Kerochan no Miko|Kerochan no Miko]] ([[User talk:Kerochan no Miko|talk]]) 15:25, 8 March 2015 (MST)