Talk:Sailor Moon in Russia
I'd like this image uploaded. It is the bilingual episode logo used by TNT for SuperS and Stars. (The other seasons retained the Japanese logos.) - Sikon 12:00, 2 January 2007 (MST)
- Do you happen to have a copy of the logo without a background? If not, I'll upload this one later... Kerochan no Miko 12:17, 2 January 2007 (MST)
- It's a TV screencap, it wasn't published anywhere else, so no. I don't think a copy without the background even exists. - Sikon 12:20, 2 January 2007 (MST)
- Is the image relocated to the current location better? --210 22:39, 2 January 2007 (MST)
- I think so. - Sikon 03:21, 3 January 2007 (MST)
Please, if this can be used in the article, do it; I'm not good at describing such things properly, especially when not writing in my native language.
- First of all, the OP/ED sequences were replaced with the respective creditless versions. (The third season used the final OP modification from the start, like with the English-subbed uncut DVDs.)
- IIRC, the avant-titles were moved to right after the OP, so that there's nothing before the opening sequence.
- The ending of the first season wasn't merely creditless, it was "upgraded" slightly: the empty spaces were filled with video fragments from the series itself, and the only writing was added Russian titles telling the air time and "to be continued". Can't confirm if the "upgrade" was also done with the third season ending.
- The second OP/ED pair of the first season (with "Princess Moon" as the ending) did not appear at all, at least on TNT; the first season initially aired on channels 2x2 and 31, and there are rumours that those airings might have used the second OP/ED pair, but I can't confirm it directly since I only watched the series on TNT. (BTW, the voice acting for the first three seasons was ordered by (and originally shown on) 2x2; TNT picked up the series later, showing the same dub of these seasons, so TNT itself is only responsible for the last two seasons as they were done much later.)
- At least from how I remember it, the second season did not retain its original ending (at least they used both openings that time); instead it still had the same ending sequence as the first season.
- Episode 89 retained its unique opening. This is also the first time they used "Moonlight Densetsu" with lyrics, and as a consequence - the only time an opening used the DALI version of "Moonlight Densetsu" with lyrics.
- For about half of the third season, the song in the ending was "Otome no Policy" (with lyrics, as with episode 89), even though the video was from "Tuxedo Mirage" ending.
- The eyecatchers were cut 'cause Russian TV generally avoids inserting ads into children's programming. At least it used to be so at the time.
- For whatever reason, episode 114 was absent from early airings, so it was only shown when the series was on TNT.
- The only reason Haruka used masculine speech is because otherwise it would've been impossible to explain why she is consistently mistaken for a man; Russian language simply doens't allow for gender-neutral speech, as verbs in past tense have gender.
- Tamasaburou, a boy from a Sailor Moon S filler episode, became a girl (and no, nobody paid attention to the implications of Chibiusa having a crush on "her"; it really looked more like Mako's "crush" on Haruka early on, which was unchanged). This is largely believed to have been a mistake on part of the translation group. Some also believe Fisheye's gender change to be a result of such mistake rather than censorship, as previously all homosexual relationships were retained, if downplayed (and I personally didn't buy Zoisite's "father" thing, it's really obvious the two were lovers. Ditto with Haruka and Michiru.). The fifth season also has Haruka voiced by a man in her civilian form, which is also less of censorship and more of failing to comply with the previous translation (considering all the name changes).
- The German opening and ending songs of the fourth season were only present on the first run, IIRC; when the logo got replaced, the songs were switched for the same instrumental "Moonlight Densetsu"/"Heart Moving" that were used in the first two seasons, and the rerun used these from the start, along with the bilingual logo itself.
- Mamoru's surname was rendered more correctly as "Chiba" in the last two seasons.
-- YnK 10:42, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- This is information that should be added to the article, not the talk page. Kerochan no Miko 11:22, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- I know, but I'm not sure how to do that properly. It seems it'll require some rewriting of what's already on the page. I'm afraid I'm going to need help with that, because these bits need to be somehow put together... --YnK 11:30, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- What do you need help with? Kerochan no Miko 11:37, 17 February 2011 (MST)
Well, for one, I believe there needs to be a clarification about it initially airing on different channels than TNT (maybe should be explained at the start of the article). You see, this is the reason the last two seasons got a translation that was drastically different from what was previously shown: TNT rebroadcast what was previously translated for another channel, but to add the newly acquired SuperS and Stars they had to order the dub of these two seasons separately; additionally, it appears they wanted to start showing new seasons right after S finished its current airing, so the whole thing was a little rushed. (Fans actually complained about the poor quality dub of the new episodes: completely different and often unfitting voices, translation errors, etc. Oddly, I've been told there are hints that SuperS/Stars were indeed translated from German, but they have Japanese audio in the background.)
The current article just sounds like TNT didn't really care for consistency of what they're airing (they probably really didn't, but them being neither the only nor the first channel to broadcast Sailor Moon explains at least some of the disrepancies. ~_^) What do you think? Should this be explained? Because the parts bought by 2x2 and parts bought later by TNT are very, very different in terms of general translation quality... They really shouldn't be mixed together, because it's confusing; I'd rather note right away the dub was done in two parts by different companies and go from there. I think it would make more sense to do split the article according to this. For example...
- Mention at the start about channels and the last two seasons being dubbed later.
- Describe the dub of the first three seasons, its quirks, including the OP/ED etc.; I can add some more info.
- Describe the dub of the last two seasons, the differences, its own quirks, etc.
- The rest is the same.
So, basically, I think it would make more sense to have "The Four Runs" section as two parts, and possibly merge the "Opening and closing sequences" into them accordingly. Then the differences between the two parts would be easier to describe, and the pecularities of each version could be put into its respective section instead of being mentioned at random like in my list above. Could you give me some advice on how to handle the two-part dub information better? It's really easier to reference the changes when the emphasis is put on the fact that the later part of the translation was done independently from the early one.
--YnK 12:17, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- Well, if the information is wrong, then... fix it? I know pretty much nothing about the Russian dub, so someone who actually does needs to correct what's wrong. I'm just here to make sure things are grammatically correct and fit style guidelines. Kerochan no Miko 13:27, 17 February 2011 (MST)
One episode of the fifth season, however, used the correct music for the episode title screen, but not the screen itself.
Need to cite the particular episode in question, please. Kerochan no Miko 18:15, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- I clearly remember that, but it'll take a little time before I find it. I do have TV captures on hand, but I'd rather watch them at a more convenient time than 4:30 AM... ^_^; --YnK 18:25, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- Not in a hurry, it just looks better to link to the specific episode than to be vague about it. ^^ Kerochan no Miko 18:27, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- Found it - ep.181. But wait, there's more... I noticed that most of other title screens from Stars are not just from the fourth season, they appear to all have a voiceover from the same episode ("Ayakashi no Mori! ..."). Whoa.
- And things are getting scarier with every episode... There are a couple of character names/episode titles translations which seem to suggest that 2x2 somehow used scripts from the North American dub as a reference. "Polite Society"? Really? What else did I not notice about the Russian dub until today?.. >_< --YnK 20:28, 17 February 2011 (MST)
- Not in a hurry, it just looks better to link to the specific episode than to be vague about it. ^^ Kerochan no Miko 18:27, 17 February 2011 (MST)
I noticed that the article doesn't mention how the names of the characters' transformed identities were handled - should this info be added? If so, does it require a separate subsection? I could then put the info below to the appropriate place in the article.
- Moon, Mercury, and (in the third season only) Uranus kept their planet names in English ("Mercury" was pronounced slightly differently, but this was just to simplify it for the Russian actors); however, the rest of the Solar System Senshi had their planet names translated into Russian - it helps that the difference is minimal, but in some cases the translation was quite noticeable, especially with Venus (Венера).
- Sailor V retained her name, but there was a bit of confusion during her introduction as Sailor Venus in episode 33, which had other girls refer to her as "Sailor Five" ("Сейлор Пять"), possibly because she was the fifth Senshi to appear.
- Sailor Chibimoon, in the third season, was called "Sailor Little Girl" ("Сейлор Малышка", using the same term as her nickname in civilian form, and completely dropping "Moon"). In later seasons, she retained the original name.
- Tuxedo Kamen was called "Tuxedo Mask", which was expected; the only difference was the word "Tuxedo" having a slightly odd pronunciation (technically, it should have been transcribed as "Таксидо", but instead was consistently heard as "Такседо", with the "eh" sound in the middle instead of a more appropriate "ee" - and the "eh" even remained stressed).
- The Sailor Starlights got a treatment similar to the Animamates and had the word "Sailor" stuck in the middle of the name; therefore, Sailor Star Fighter was called "Star Sailor Warrior" ("Звёздный Сейлор Воин"), Sailor Star Maker was "Star Sailor Creator" ("Звёздный Сейлор Творец"), and Sailor Star Healer was "Star Sailor Healer" ("Звёздный Сейлор Целитель"). Their transformation phrases were left out completely, so when transforming they simply called out their Senshi names. The collective name "Sailor Starlights" was rendered simply as "Star Sailor Soldiers/Warriors" ("Звёздные Сейлор-воины").
- Incidentally, "Threelights" was translated to "Three Stars" ("Три Звезды"); this is, arguably, a clever pun (the word "star" still carries an additional meaning in Russian, as in "pop-star") but not a literal translation.
--YnK 05:55, 20 February 2011 (MST)
- Why wouldn't it be added? Kerochan no Miko 13:33, 20 February 2011 (MST)
School got messed up...
This is probably not worth mentioning in the actual article, but I'd like to point out that 2x2 completely messed up the Japanese school system. In the first season intro, Bunny says she is 14 and in the second year of college (though saying "second year of middle school" would've been just as confusing - they should've said "eighth form/grade"). Then, in the third season, the girls claim that they're in their last school year: if one is not aware of what was meant originally, the implication is that they're about to enter a university or something of that kind, which is a whole different level of education. Why the translation group didn't convert this stuff to Russian equivalents is unknown, but it would've made things a lot more understandable.
Incidentally, the colledge thing is incorrect even internally: in both Japan and Russia, one usually would need to finish at least nine years of school to get there; so it would've only worked if they were going to study there after season 3. Nitpicking, yes, but this, unfortunately, isn't the only case when the translators misinterpreted something in a way that would require one to be familiar with the original in order to understand what was actually meant. And this was supposed to be an anime for kids, whose knowledge of Japan might not be on such advanced level. --YnK 04:15, 22 February 2011 (MST)
- If it's worth mentioning then it's worth mentioning in the article. This talk page is for discussing the article, not including trivia facts. Kerochan no Miko 15:47, 22 February 2011 (MST)
- I assume it belongs to the "Censorship and changes" section... but at the same time, nothing was going to be censored or changed. This is merely a result of the translation group attempting to find a way to make certain aspects of Japan more simple for the audience or to find a more general equivalent for them (and failing). They did a similar thing with the "Usagi can't write kanji" gag (I'm still wondering what an "incorrectly written kanji" could look like). I know that some dubs even remove actual Japanese writing from the episodes, so it's at least related, I guess. Does handling cultural references belong to that section, or somewhere else? Russian dub is tricky because they didn't really do that many deliberate changes in comparison with many other versions, but at the same time there are things that the translators just plain got wrong. --YnK 16:23, 22 February 2011 (MST)
- It could be a trivia note, if nothing else. Just an explanation of "they said the girls were in this grade which didn't match either school system" or whatever. And since I just hit yet another edit conflict with you, once more I ask that you please, please, please use the show preview button instead of making multiple changes. -_- Kerochan no Miko 16:32, 22 February 2011 (MST)
By trivia note, you mean something like this? I could make such a section here... Changing something from the original in the process of adaptation is one thing, and it's natural, but changing it to something that doesn't make sense within the adaptation itself usually causes a lot of confusion on part of the audience. This was something the Russian dub did quite a lot, so if anything, I'll consider only listing things that appeared repeatedly. (Though I'm still kind of unsure how to do that correctly... and I'll apparently have a lot of troubles with getting you to help with something, 'cause we live in different time zones and I'm definitely not good at editing articles while half-asleep. x_x;) --YnK 17:13, 22 February 2011 (MST)
- Yeah, that's what the trivia sections usually look like. Most of the time it's for stuff like you have in that article about the French dub, just little bits of trivia about the actors or whatever. But something like this, you're right - if there's something so weirdly inconsistent that it doesn't even make sense within the adaptation it definitely needs to be noted, but if it happened often then it might need its own section. Let's see... the article about the English adaptation has a "Changes and Errors" section, so something along those lines might work here. We could change "Censorship and Changes" to "Censorship, Changes, and Errors" and maybe put subheadings for each of the three. Would that be unnecessarily complicated? Kerochan no Miko 17:24, 22 February 2011 (MST)
- I'd rather not make subheadings because, even on the current "censorship..." list, most of the time it's impossible to tell whether the change was done deliberately or it was a translation error (I can accept maybe Fisheye being a deliberate change - and even that is not known for sure - but Metalia and Tamasaburou are pretty clearly just translation screw-ups). Expanding the section to cover things that were misinterpreted to the point of not making sense will work for now - if it grows too large, then it could be split into smaller parts. --YnK 17:59, 22 February 2011 (MST)
- Good point. Let's just go with that, then, and see how it works. Kerochan no Miko 18:34, 22 February 2011 (MST)
Now (after having some sleep) I have another idea - might work even better with the Russian version. Here's the logic behind it:
- Since the animation is uncensored by default, categories about removing violence etc. aren't applicable here, so a tiny note like the one in the current section is sufficient.
- School system, kanji and everything of that kind belongs to the "handling cultural references" category. While most of that is usually subjected to adaptation changes by default, as I mentioned above, points that were highly inconsistent or poorly explained throughout the entire series might be worth including here, as they make up a major part of what was changed deliberately.
- Handling OP/EDs and insert songs would also sort of belong to that category in the sense that using creditless versions obviously eliminates the Japanese writing in the sequence (I personally think that they did this 'cause credits without text supposedly just look better, though many modern Russian anime dubs [sic] use the creditless OP/EDs more or less as intended - i.e. for putting Russian credits there) - yet the same writing is everywhere else in the series, so the note on the current article about the credits being the only changed part of the video is quite appropriate. As for inserts, you see that they were neither removed nor translated, which is a way of handling the Japanese content as well - by just leaving it alone.
- Incidentally, the article on the German dub has the OP/ED referenced in the same "changes" section, but the Russian version made things too complicated to fit there properly.
- Various "gender change" issues, on the other hand, are a whole different category, regardless of whether done deliberately or accidentally. This is not merely "adaptation" for easier understanding, but actual changes to the original - and I'd like to point out again that there was no real reason to edit most of what belongs here.
So, to make the section look less random, here's what could be done:
- Adding the "errors" part to the title, as this is what this section is really going to be about... mostly.
- Leaving the general note about the animation being unchanged at the start of the section, as it's pretty much the key point: any changes could only be done via dialogue, which is a lot trickier than just erasing something from the video.
- Making a subsection called "cultural references" or something of the kind. Apart from the school/kanji/whatever else was messed up, I would move here a note about "odango atama" since it's pretty much a result of the translators not finding an appropriate equivalent.
- Making a subsection about "homosexuality and gender changes", which will contain most of what's currently in the section. The subsection title in itself would be then pretty neutral in the sense that these changes aren't nessesarily a result of censorship.
This will at least make the list slightly less cluttered in case there are other common pieces of inconsistent translation that might deserve a mention. --YnK 03:33, 23 February 2011 (MST)
- I'm... not so sure about the subsections, because they sound a little too specific. We could just make the section called something generic like "Adaptation" and since the predominant issues seem to be the OP/ED thing and translation problems, have subsections for "Translation" (which would include cultural references, gender changes, name mess-ups, whatever) and one for all the OP/ED stuff which... no idea on a title for the section. Something. But I would like to avoid getting really nitpicky on section titles, tbh. Kerochan no Miko 14:30, 23 February 2011 (MST)
That could work, but would probably require some more tweaks. I'm just not sure how to better organize this section, but simply mixing everything together might not look very good. The reason I wanted to separate the "gender issues" part is because these changes are the ones that are really out of place most of the time (considering they did leave in many references to homosexual pairings in other parts of the translation, yet some characters still ended up with the wrong gender, sometimes without a reason - i.e. Metalia; and then there's Haruka in the fifth season...). Let's see... if we go with your idea, then:
- With the only changed part of the video being OP/ED, there's not much to write about the video part: the first two paragraphs in the current section already describe all the issues that are not related to the credits. And the credits themselves are already described in the broadcast section (which really should have the word "translation" replaced with something related to the companies doing that "translation"...but I'm not sure what to call them). It just makes more sense this way, as the credits were handled very differently in the two parts of the dub (in fact, in both video and translation, the 2x2 version and the SV-Double version are nearly incompatible, so mixing them together would only be more confusing).
- So the only thing that remains is the translation part... but it's pretty obvious anyway, as all the changes are only done on the level of dialogue. No difference from the current section = no changes required.
I'll think about this some more, then.
Semi-offtopic question: are there people on this wiki who are familiar with the actual German dub? Just curious, because pretty much any review of the Russian-dubbed SuperS season confirms that the translation was indeed from the German script. Which has one consequence: if the German dub changed Fisheye to be female or at least gave him a female voice (which I assume would be natural since the character is of the "pretty boy" type), then this is probably the reason SV-Double made him female... --YnK 03:49, 24 February 2011 (MST)
This is more of a trivia note, but I'm sure it's useless to create a trivia section for one random comment; maybe add this to the group section where their names are mentioned?
In the Russian dub, Zirconia's name was unchanged and simply pronounced like the corresponding Russian equivalent: "Tsirkoniya" (Циркония). The collective name of the villains, Dead Moon Circus, on the other hand, was (correctly) translated into Russian as Цирк Мертвой Луны ("Tsirk Myortvoy Luny", or Circus of the Dead Moon). Here's the fun part: I never realized that Zirconia's name wasn't supposed to be a pun on "circus" until I found out how the names are written in Japanese and English; if you compare the stems of the Russian words, you'll see why.
As far as I know, the two words are actually completely unrelated. Coincidence, probably, but a very good one. Especially since both 2x2 and SV-Double weren't exactly good at making something comprehensible out of actual wordplay that's everywhere in Sailor Moon, yet this wouldn't be the only wordplay they made themselves ("Threelights" being called "Three Stars" is another example of a pun that's only in the Russian version). But this time, it's very likely unintentional. --YnK 01:53, 7 March 2011 (MST)
A pair of small things
I have to say that I do not try to add this information in the article, because I can not correctly translate it into English.
Neo Queen Serenity was called as Queen Serenity, ie, "Queen Serenity" ("Королева Серенити"). Although four times on Neo Queen Serenity spoken of as "the new Queen Serenity" and once it was called "the new queen," the word "new" ("новая") could hardly be seen as part of the title.
About Chibiusa. Its quite correctly called "Маленькая Леди" ("Little Lady" or "Small Lady") in the second season. In the third season, this option is only used in the 104 series, then Chibiusa was "Юная Леди" ("Young Lady"). In the fourth season, the first time Diana called her "Принцесса" ("Princess"), then a 142 series still "Маленькая Леди", then to the end of the season a "Малышка". In the fifth season Setsuna almost every time called it differently: "маленькая девочка" ("little girl"), "Малышка" in the second half of the season, "прекрасная леди" ("Fair Lady" or "very beautiful lady").
Names Seiya, Taiki and Yaten turned into names. Name Kou instead of "Ко" was two-syllable Kou ("Ko" and "y"). And instead of the name is the last name. And it was so: Сейя Коу, Таики Коу and Ятен Коу.
Their presentation was the phrase "Из густой ночной тени, из небесных просторов явились странствующие метеоры: Звёздный Воин! Звёздный Творец! Звёздный Целитель! Звёздные Сейлор Воины, вперёд!" или "Мы странствующие метеоры, разгоняющие зловещую тьму: Звёздный Сейлор Воин! Звёздный Сейлор Творец! Звёздный Сейлор Целитель! Звёздные Сейлоры, вперёд!". So fandom often called "Метеоры" (Meteors). In the anime, the popular name "Звёздные Сейлоры" (Star Sailors).
Princess kakyu in the fan translation of the manga reason was named "Оливия" (Olivia). (This unsigned comment was left by 188.8.131.52, 6 July 2015)
2016 DVD Release
If we're going to list names that were changed in the dub, we need a list and/or more examples, and better translations for the names. "Wheelman" is not a word that is commonly used in English, and given that I also don't speak Russian, I have no idea what it's supposed to mean. This wiki is geared toward English speakers, so translations need to be comprehensible to be included. Also, there needs to either be more information or a general description of said dub - just saying it existed and that one character name was changed is very disjointed and unhelpful. Kerochan no Miko (talk) 12:08, 24 January 2018 (MST)
- Kerochan no Miko, OK, I'll try to get the PDF document with invoice of dub from the RZD-TV head office and get the more information about it, got it? I see, that the folk's mention (e.g. forums and VKontakte clubs) is not in your contingent. Also, Wheelman was said in russian as Уилман (Uuilman) as a first name. As a name-of-job (you got it, I am half-spaniard) it used later. Wheelman|Tanner 12:13, 24 January 2018 (MST)
- Also about Wheelman - this is a man who drives the car, e.g. Driver. See this page for details. Wheelman|Tanner 12:32, 24 January 2018 (MST)
- Kerochan no Miko, I got it, see throughly the document I recieved by email from SuperDisc Russia. I updated data in a lil' bit. Please, do not be angry at me, if I did some wrong... But I acknowledged from SuperDisc that they called Mamoru as Wheelman officially in English, I told you what that is mean. I wrote the russian name (Racer - as I translated), man. Wheelman|Tanner 00:48, 25 January 2018 (MST)
- Kerochan no Miko, I'm outta of data. That's all of it, but I need Autoconfirmed state to upload a new Russian logo. And I ignored the note about two voice actors for one character (Zoisite), so I just put a note that the characters are dubbed by the famous actors. Perdóname (Sorry). Wheelman|Tanner 01:46, 26 January 2018 (MST)
- Please note that "Wheelman_Tanner" user is a notoriously known "out of this world" Russian vandal who has this obsession about creating "Russian dub version" of Sailor Moon and from time to time starts passing his own very poorly fabricated clips as "official dubbing" "made by Russian Railways company". I'd advise you to block this user and keep an eye on this page in the future as he's been using about 10 different accounts on Russian wikipedia alone to vandalise Sailor Moon articles. --SBerT (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2018 (MST)
- SBerT, no way. I ain't ever use Wikipedia. See document attached on the link. Wheelman|Tanner 04:23, 26 January 2018 (MST)
- As a way, you don't have powers here. Also, the editwars are not accepted here. Read throughly the PDF. I mean it. Wheelman|Tanner 04:24, 26 January 2018 (MST)