Talk:Seijaku no Hostie (Seitai)

Title Misspelled

The title of this song is "Seijaku no Hostie", not "Seijaku no Hoste". The page should be renamed to correct this error. Maboroshi 02:08, 5 September 2007 (MST)

I don't have a problem with the proposed move, so long as it's done in accordance with site policies this time. Kerochan no Miko 02:12, 5 September 2007 (MST)

That's why I posted this here. :) Maboroshi 02:51, 5 September 2007 (MST)

Japanese Pronunciation

Anyone knows the Japanese pronunciation of "Hoste"? --210 05:48, 14 July 2007 (MST)

The word is "Hostie", not "Hoste". It's the French word for "heavenly host" and is also the French word for the sacramental wafer of Catholicism. In Japanese, it sounds like the English word "toasty" without the t at the beginning (which is also how it sounds in French). Maboroshi 01:24, 5 September 2007 (MST)

The Japanese pronunciation had already been added after I posted my question above, but thx for your valuable info about the "Hostie" thing. ^^ --210 05:10, 5 September 2007 (MST)

Lyrics

If anyone doubts me, these are the lyrics from the program book:

Yes, it really does say "aa" in roman letters there. Kerochan no Miko 21:51, 3 December 2009 (MST)

I've seen in another source rendering it in hiragana, hence my editing that accordingly, but that source is just a copy of the lyrics, not from the original hard copy. --210 22:45, 3 December 2009 (MST)

Image Song

There has been considerable amount of debate when it comes to myu image songs, and I see no reason to add anything that isn't already listed on the image songs article unless there's discussion first; I don't care how "obvious" a song might be in one person's opinion. Kerochan no Miko 22:00, 27 June 2011 (MST)

Well let me start a discussion right here. I believe this is an image song for Mistress 9 for the exact same reason that I believe Teikou no Hana is an image song for Princess Kakyuu, that is: because they speak of who they are as characters. Now this song clearly says ``I'm the Hostie of Silence, Mistress 9, the Hostie of Silence``. In this song Mistress 9 speaks of herself and who she is, what she stands for, etc. Just like for another exemple ``Black Moon Signal``, this song is representative of that character in particular and would not make sense being song by any other character.

That being said I recognise that I should have bring it up on this talk page first before doing any edit. My bad. Sorry. -- Sailor Simon 01:24, 28 June 2011 (EST)

Actually, because that list is "representative"... as you have stated here : http://www.wikimoon.org/index.php?title=Talk:Image_song. On that discussion page it was also agreed that image songs should be included on character articles and not on the image song article. Cartwheelingfiesta 22:27, 27 June 2011 (MST)

Since image songs are either songs that are strongly character associated (Teikou no Hana - Kakyuu) or ones that contain musical themes associated with a particular character (Dream Yume wa Ookiku - Ami). Seijaku no Hostie certainly fits the first category. Cartwheelingfiesta 22:29, 27 June 2011 (MST)

Not quite: if a song is called an "image song" then it goes on the image songs article. The Tuxedo Mask songs were debatably image songs so instead of listing them as such it was just noted in his article that they were significant songs that he performed but not specifically image songs. It's a bit of nitpicking but it works, especially in the case of myu songs that are almost all potentially an image song. And "Dream Yume wa Ookiku" isn't listed as an image song, so that doesn't count as an example.

That being said, I suppose this song could work as a Mistress 9 image song as much as "Teikou no Hana" does for Princess Kakyuu. Kerochan no Miko 23:14, 27 June 2011 (MST)

O_o ... That makes me think that we should only go with songs that have been specifically called theme songs... and not leave it up to opinion but that'll be ignored anyway... Besides... Mistress 9 is a one musical set character and pretty much every character has been given an image song in some way by these standards... Its probably best to keep to keep the image song page restricted to the important characters of the musicals with the number of appearances by Dimande being the bare minimum...(so basically the Senshi, Galaxia, Beryl, Tuxedo Kamen, Loof Merrow & Dark Plasman) if you start including Mistress 9 then you end up with Magus Collection, Black Moon Signal, Ruby no Aka, Image de Mon Pere, Kubisuji wo Sashidase and other songs that can be seen as image songs... Making the word "representative" redundant... Cartwheelingfiesta 01:14, 28 June 2011 (MST)

If you think "that'll be ignored anyway" then either don't bring it up for discussion or refrain from making cracks like that because they're anything but conducive to a civil discourse.

I entirely agree with that sentiment, which is why I've been trying to limit the image songs there listed. It has to be limited somehow, and keeping it to only the most important characters and songs seems to be the best way I've found. Which means adding this song to image songs is quite premature, so I'm removing that. Kerochan no Miko 01:35, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Okay I need to set a foot down here because I just DON'T UNDERSTAND anything anymore. Could we please stop discussing other topics than the song in question right now thank you. I don't care anout OTHER (a.k.a off topic) songs that may or may not be image songs. Please lets restric to talk about THIS PARTICULAR SONG. I did the exact same thing I did with Teikou no Hana, I presented facts (not opinions) to show that this song his INDEED associated with this particular character.

Kerochan no Miko you said: I suppose this song could work as a Mistress 9 image song as much as "Teikou no Hana" does for Princess Kakyuu.

Cartwheelingfiesta you said: Seijaku no Hostie certainly fits the first category.

So if there is nobody who disagrees that this song indeed fits the image song criterias, then I don't see why this dicussion needs to go any further. Lets just agree for THIS ONE SONG and make the changes like we did for Teikou no Hana and if there are any more dicussions about image songs in general, then I STRONGLY advise that they be taken to the image song talk page since that's what it is for. Same goes for any other songs. Their discussion pages are the only appropriate place to talk about it as you reminded me Miko-chan in the Teikou no Hana talk page when we started talking about Amazon Kara Circus Dan ga Yatte Kita.

So if there are no more objections about THIS song alone, then I will make the according changes. Also if somebody disagrees, I would like that they provide facts FROM THE SONG itself like I did. Thank you. Last reminder: this page is called Talk:Seijaku no Hostie (Seitai), so let us stick to this subject. PLEASE. BTW the fact that Mistress 9 was a one (actually two since there is a Kaiteiban) time character is irrelevant, Black Lady was a one time character and the song Black Moon Signal is indeed said to be her image song ON THIS WIKI, check the Black Lady article and the Black Moon Signal article if you don't believe me. If there are any more problems with other songs or Image Songs in general, they have their own talk page on which theses issues can be addressed. -- Sailor Simon 22:12, 28 June 2011 (EST)

sorry then X3 <3 so many capitals @_@, the discussion above is referring to whether Seijaku no Hostie should be included under the list of image songs on the image song page so its not totally irrelevant. there is no question about whether to have this called an image song on its own page Cartwheelingfiesta 22:05, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Well honestly that was my point all allong, I personnally believe that every songs that fits the criterias of image songs should be considered as such and it should be duly notted in their respective articles. I honestly cannot begin to comprehend why they should not if that is indeed what they are.

That being said, they should of course be discussed on their respective talk pages before anything is done. However, when it comes to the Image Song page and what the list on there should be composed of: it's an entirely other debate, one in which I have absolutely no interest whatsoever. If Kerochan no Miko wants the list to be representative (i.e. short), then it's her descision and while I don't agree with it, it is not my place to discuss it.

Finally in regard of this page, I don't see why it could not say that it is indeed an image song (BECAUSE it fits the criterias of such songs) for Mistress 9 while still not being part of the REPRESENTATIVE (a.k.a the new word for small) list featured in the Image Song article.

Why? because that is the case for many other songs, such as Prince of The Earth, other Tuxedo Kamen songs and Black Moon Signal who are not on the representative list, yet are still said to be an image song for Tuxedo Mask, Prince Endymion and Black Lady respectively on the songs' articles, as well as the characters' articles, which is exactly what I want to do for this song. -- Sailor Simon 01:52, 29 June 2011 (EST)

we agreed that its fine o_O another issue simply came up ... which is being discussed on the image song page now... Cartwheelingfiesta 23:03, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Then why does my edit keep getting remove^^???? -- Sailor Simon 02:06, 29 June 2011 (EST)

I didnt know it was being removed o_O Cartwheelingfiesta 23:21, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Okay, that discussion exploded and I'm not going to bother to respond point by point. To sum up: as I said in a previous comment, the "other" Tuxedo Mask songs are not image songs. Look at his article and it just says that they're other significant songs that he performed. If a song isn't listed specifically on the image songs article, then it can not be called an image song in another article, period, end of story.

And I removed the edits because, as I said when I removed them, changing the article to say it was an image song was premature because the discussion was clearly not over. As noted in this discussion and on the discussion on the image songs article, I don't see a need to list songs for every single character in the musicals, and I feel Mistress 9 isn't a significant enough character to deserve to be included on a list that's supposed to be kept as short as possible. I initially agreed that, yes, this might be considered an image song, but if you re-read what I've previously written, something Cartwheelingfiesta said made me reconsider. At this point I don't think THIS SONG should be listed as an image song, no. Kerochan no Miko 23:45, 28 June 2011 (MST)

Okay, major problem here: "I feel Mistress 9 isn't a significant enough character". That is entirely an opinion, I presented facts that shows that this song dose indeed fit the criterias of an image song. What have you brought except that you don't feel like she is significant enough. I think she is as significant as Prince Dimande who is on the so-called representative list.

The whole problem here is that you want that list kept as short as possible, which I think is just irrelevant. Why sould it matter if the list is short or long anyway, especially when it's about the Myu? BTW, represantative does not have to equal short. And why present a representative list when we could just have an accurate one instead. And if we have to go through each songs that someone thinks is an image songs and come to a conscensus on weither it is or not then that's what we'll do. Honestly that seems like the only logical and acceptable option in the Sera Myu songs case to me. I mean isn't that what a wiki is about, comming to a conscensus rather than rulling out what again, only you seems to think is ``not significant enough``.

BTW the whole ``I'm not going to bother to respond point by point`` does not show me that you really actually care what I have to say. -- Sailor Simon 03:01, 29 June 2011 (EST)

Dimande also appears in Ai no Sanctuary, which makes him in two musical sets,, however Dimande as noted on the image song page is being questioned. I would be prepared to note every possible image song X3. Cartwheelingfiesta 00:12, 29 June 2011 (MST)

Sailorsimon, I didn't "bother" to respond point by point because it would have made my comment far too long to read. If I didn't care about what you were saying I wouldn't respond at all.

That being said, what it comes down to is that if we put every single myu song that could be an image song on the image songs article that article would be 99% myu songs and far too long to read. There does come a point when I as an admin have to set boundaries on things (I don't see you arguing about how we should come to a consensus about, say, the style guidelines), and this is one of those cases: the article needs to stay at a reasonable length, and I'm trying to figure out a good limit to keep it that way. Mistress 9 is not a character who appears in very many musicals, and therefore I don't think she's significant enough to deserve a spot in a very short list. Kerochan no Miko 00:39, 29 June 2011 (MST)

99% is a little bit of an exaggeration. It would actually be around 30% at the very maximum... Cartwheelingfiesta 01:27, 29 June 2011 (MST)